Weird posession

[batboy]

On the weekend we had a little training session. One of the guys was mucking around doing hand rolls with the ball between the face guard and his pfd (under his chin/face guard). I kept dropping the ball out but he was able to keep the ball there quite well, and wondered what would happen if he paddled with it there. My feeling was it should probably be illegal, though I couldn't think why:mad: . At best I thought maybe it was no worse than paddling with the ball tucked under the arm, which a lot of guys here do, the 5 second rule being applied.:(

I got around to reading the rules on this today, and thought the major rule was 31 (illegal posession):

Signals 11 and 15 apply. A player is in possession of the ball when they have the ball in their hand or are in a position to reach the ball with their hand, the ball being on the water and not in the air. A player balancing the ball on their paddle will also be considered to be in possession.
I can't see that holding the ball under your face guard is technically illegal. Can someone help me with a rule to stop this madness!!??

It gets worse since the 5 second rule reads:

A player must dispose of the ball within five (5) seconds of gaining possession,but a player with the ball under their chin is not in posession- its not in their hand, and though they are in a position to reach the ball, the second clause- "the ball being in the water" is not fulfilled.

I think everyone would call either the carry as illegal or at least enforce the 5 seconds, but theoretically you can't be tackled and can hold the ball as long as you want under your chin.

Perhaps it's unsportsmanlike? ie behaviour considered detrimental to the game at the discretion of the referee. But is it unsportsmanlike from the start, or is under the chin a valid alternative to carrying the ball under the arm??:confused: I hope never to see this in a game.

[Matty P]

It's legal, and you are in possesion.. you have 5 seconds to do with it what you want. stupid though, somone could hit it out from under ya chin and it could hurt. and you'd just look like a goose doing it! .. Just like people who chicken wing all the time! :thumbdown

[chicken winger]

Chicken winging it and round arms win games. So it sounds to me like paddling with the ball under your chin could be the next big thing. Keep on it.

[SongPeng]

Just common sense... the rule say you can't have the ball in you hand reach area for 5 second .. and the ball is not in the air.. well ball under their chin is consider hand reach.. so i will call it 5 second if the player didn't dispose it.. other defender can tackle the player as usual..

and the player can't block/fenceoff the defender hand if the defender trying to take the ball with their hand..

it's my point of view..

song peng

[niall]

I see a lot of punches to the face in the coming season. :D

[batboy]

I agree it looks stupid- reason being it is stupid (and uncomfortable, possibly dangerous....) - but I want it to be illegal- the consensus seems to be it's not?

[Patty M]

So one of the guys from my club spent some time in the circus, and he got pretty good at balancing balls and what not. so hes worked out that he can balance the ball on his head and paddle the length of the field, the only problem is that it takes him more than 5 seconds to do it.. is this illegal? the ball isnt on the water and its not in his hands. according to the rules, as they are written this is legal. right?

[Eoin]

Yes but surely you just shaq the ball off them? If some jbrone is paddling down the pitch with the ball on his head only a complete nugget wouldn't try to knock it off his head. If somone has the ball balanced under their chin then just knock it out, they can't fend you off cos it's a foul to do that!

[Matty P]

So one of the guys from my club spent some time in the circus, and he got pretty good at balancing balls and what not. so hes worked out that he can balance the ball on his head and paddle the length of the field, the only problem is that it takes him more than 5 seconds to do it.. is this illegal? the ball isnt on the water and its not in his hands. according to the rules, as they are written this is legal. right?
yeah it's all legal, but 5 seconds still applies.. Even if the ball was ballancing on the nose of ya boat and for some unknown stupid reason you couldn't get it off, even though u couldn't reach it with ya hands to get it off or ya paddle u'd still be in possession.

[Patty M]

according to the rules, you dont not technically have possesion, because the ball is not in your hands, and the ball is not on the water within arms reach, i think thats kind of the point of this forum tho, to point out the fact that the rule isnt really worded right. for the record, i think the key point in determining that the player is in possesion, by completely taking the rules as they are litterally written is the fact that a player must dispose of the ball after gaining possesion,

as far as i can tell any player must have picked the ball up with their hands to put it under their chin or at the very least the ball must have at some time been on the water within arms, therefore they have gained possesion, and by placing it under their chin have not broken possesion, hence the 5 second rule does apply.

as far as the placing the ball under the chin being illegal, u could probably call it unsporting behaviour, in the same manor that putting a ball down a shirt could be called illegal (i beleive). it is really probably quite dangerous (to the player doing it mainly) but still

[Izzy]

as far as i can tell any player must have picked the ball up with their hands to put it under their chin or at the very least the ball must have at some time been on the water within arms, therefore they have gained possesion, and by placing it under their chin have not broken possesion, hence the 5 second rule does apply.



Let your teammate put a ball under your chin! :thumbup:

[Patty M]

touche

[niall]

You can put the ball under your shirt?????? Cooooool! :D :D

[LJH#3]

i think they were saying you cant put the ball under your shirt.

[niall]

Well show me it ain't allowed in the rules. :thumbup: :thumbup:

I would have to say it is unsporting though

[LJH#3]

the fact that it is unsporting makes it illegal and is therefore in the rules

[niall]

Well it depends on your definition of unsporting. It could be seen as smart thinking too. I would consider zone defence (one that works) unsporting. :D :D :D :D :D

[LJH#3]

unsporting behaviour... i beleive is stated as something like this. (i dont have a rule book on me). i may be wrong

unsporting behaviour is any action not covered within the rules that the umpire deems to be detrimental to the game.

how on earth could you consider a zone to be unsporting??? its a fundamental part of the game

[Eoin]

Give him a break he's only joking!

I hope! :p

[niall]

Well it depends...... :D

My point is really why do we have to expect the ref's to have common sense instead of fixing the rules as and when they need to be fixed?

[Robert]

No question as far as I am concerned, it not unsportmans like, the player is in possision therefore the 5 second rule applies.

Got to say though, sounds like a stupid thing to do, is the player lacking something upstairs?

[troy]

how on earth could you consider a zone to be unsporting??? its a fundamental part of the game
NBA Basketball have decided "zone defence" is detrimental to the game (& therefore unsporting) and have disallowed it .... FIBA still allow it in international rules...
You may yet see the day when zone defence is disallowed in canoe polo, but at the rate of progress ICF make on developing and clarifying the rules for the good of the game it may also be quite unlikely!!!
[Illegal zone defence defined by NBA is "two or more defenders in the 'keyhole' area not directly marking individual opponents" - maybe if it's ever introduced to canoe polo it might be appropriately defined as "two or more defender (other than the goalkeeper) not directly marking individual opponents"

So Eoin, it may not be just a joke !

[Eoin]

I appreciate that Troy but in my opinion it would be a joke to enforce this rule in canoe polo. There are certain advantages to using the kind of tactics that you seem to describe as unsportsmanlike but there are also disadvantages!! A good team will work hard to exploit these disadvantages.Some of the most satisfying goals/victories involve having to work against these arguably negative tactics.

:silly:

[LJH#3]

the NBA didnt change the rule because they considered it unsporting... they changed the rule because they thought it would be more exciting without a zone. just like they changed the travelling rule so people could dunk better and make it more exciting.

and again i will point out, as i have in other topics where referances have been made to basketball... the game is completely different, so you cant really make comparisons like this without taking that into acount