Goal Penalty Shot

[Batman]

Hi all,
This is Kelvin from NUS. I would like to clarify if a foul on a player within 6m in the act of shooting WITH a KEEPER in position be awarded a GOAL PENALTY SHOT? IN one of my games, the opponent team was awarded a GPS in this situation.I do not wish to quote the particular referee here as it is for everybody's learning... But i see in most of the other cases.. its just a free shot.. can somebody please clarify this point? I personally cannot see the point in which all fouls on a shooting person BUT with a goalie in position be awarded a GPS. Even though i have no more games this coming weekend games, i do not wish to see such inconsistencies in the calls..Can somebody clarify?

I quote below a thread that i search on the forum for this situation. the full thread can be assessed by this link
http://www.canoepolo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1289&highlight=fouling+player+shooting

James (http://www.canoepolo.com/forum/member.php?u=124) vbmenu_register("postmenu_8148", true); http://www.canoepolo.com/forum/images/flags/New%20Zealand.gif
Senior Member

Join Date: May 2002
Location: Palmerston North, NZ
Posts: 377


Goal Penalty shot
ICF RULE: A goal-penalty-shot will be awarded for any deliberate and/or dangerous offence in the six (6) metre area where a player is fouled in the act of shooting, or passing or positioning for a near certain goal.

Above is the Current ICF rule. This rule has major implications in the way we play polo. If you have a goalie in place this means that you are able to commit a foul on a shooting player and not recieve a Goal penalty shot awarded against you. (You may be sanctioned for your foul though.) I do not recall seeing a goal penaly shot awarded while playing in Europe last year for fouls that were not stopping a near certain goal! (We did see cards issued ...eventually)

I don't think the rules should be written because I would prefer we are as a rule of thumb consistant with ICF, more to the point this is best for NZ canoe polo as a whole!

There are further implications for the above rule: fouling a penalty shot hould not lead to an automatic Goal penalty.......this was certainly the way the elite ICF referees called the game.


Kelvin

[Raymond Liow]

Hi Kelvin and all,

Agree that we should all take this from the learning point of view, and improve the game thereafter.

Perhaps I could offer some clarification to your doubts?

A GPS can be considered when a player is fouled deliberately and/or dangerously in the act of shooting, passing or positioning for a near certain goal in either of the following cases:
i. when the offence takes place within the 6m zone; or
ii. when the offence takes place outside of the 6m zone when the goal is not defended (note that this does not mean the absence of a GK only; it also refers to the absence of any defender attempting to defend the goal)

[I've bolded and underlined the key words.]

What might have differed in your case compared to the others are the elements of deliberation and/or danger in the foul, or that the goal would have been near certain had the foul not occurred.

I hope this clears your question on the basis for calling a GPS.

On your second point, it would be worthwhile to note that NZ does not play polo according to ICF rules. Or at least, they did not play so some years ago. For e.g. NZ practices baseline re-start after a goal vs centreline re-start for ICF.

I do not agree with James' point that a GPS should not be awarded if a foul was committed in the 6m zone when a GK was present. Using a simple example, do you think a GPS should be awarded if a player deliberately hit his opponent's arm with his paddle while the latter was in the act of shooting a near certain goal in the 6m zone when the GK was in position?

An easy way to judge if a call was made well is to apply the basic premise of 'fairness and safety', which are the fundamentals for any kind of game, ball or not.

Hope this clears the air somewhat.
Do let me know your views. We can discuss further.

[James]

Hi guys,

Please note that my comment was posted in April 2003 in response to a rule review in New Zealand.

In my personal opinion the most difficult part of the rule is the "near certain goal" part, as this involves measure of interpretation when there is a goalie in place. After-all watching the 2006 world championships final penalty shoot-out, it was amazing the number of people that didn't score! These are some of the best players in the world!!

Always difficult for the referee to decide, but we must back them to make the correct decision.:thumbup:

[kaoz]

if a free shot is within 6m zone because of dangerous paddle, (1) the zoner blocked the shot, ball doesnt travelled 1 m (repeated foul). (2) the zoner uses hand to hit away the ball or hand tackle the taker before the taker takes the shot. and my question is will these two case contribute to a penalty?? :twocents:

[Raymond Liow]

Hi guys,

Please note that my comment was posted in April 2003 in response to a rule review in New Zealand.

In my personal opinion the most difficult part of the rule is the "near certain goal" part, as this involves measure of interpretation when there is a goalie in place. After-all watching the 2006 world championships final penalty shoot-out, it was amazing the number of people that didn't score! These are some of the best players in the world!!

Always difficult for the referee to decide, but we must back them to make the correct decision.:thumbup:

James,

I can understand what you mean and can't agree more.
The toughest part is to judge if it's a near certain goal or not.

[Raymond Liow]

if a free shot is within 6m zone because of dangerous paddle, (1) the zoner blocked the shot, ball doesnt travelled 1 m (repeated foul). (2) the zoner uses hand to hit away the ball or hand tackle the taker before the taker takes the shot. and my question is will these two case contribute to a penalty?? :twocents:

Yes, a GPS should be awarded in either cases for interfering with a direct shot at goal within the 6m zone.

However, for your eg (1), in many instances, it would be a very close call and would not be an easy judgement to make.

On the other hand, for your eg (2), it's an obvious GPS. Additionally, the referee could consider awarding a card for unsportsmanlike behaviour.

[Batman]

Thanks Raymond and James for ur input

[Batman]

Yap, Thanks raymond for ur input. I understand the part on a foul on a "near certain goal" shd result in a GPS. I also understand that within 6m, IF A GK is in place, a dangerous or deliberate foul e.g hitting the shooter in the face or hand while he is attempting a shot, a GPS shd be warranted.

But the above 2 clear-cut scenarios were not what i experienced.
I forgot to add that the foul commited by my teammate (the defender) was in fact quite trivial (at least thats what i feel). (1) He was using his paddle to intercept a pass to the potential shooter, ya his paddle was probably within 1 m of that shooter while the shooter receive that pass and a GK was present. Should that be a "paddle to hand" foul that he commited and a "free shot" be given OR Should this be considered dangerously and deliberate fouling and result in a penalty

Alternatively.. lets say NOW (2) the shooter has received the ball but has not shot. But the paddle was raised close to him within 1 m of reach(whether in front of the shooter or behind him) in an attempt to prevent him from shooting (with a GK in place)..

OR (3) the shooter released the ball, but a defender paddle block ( again either in front or behind the shooter) was so near to the shooter's hand that its infringes a " paddle to hand' foul (this also with GK in place),
BUT in BOTH (2) and (3) it wasnt dangerously fouling him like hitting on the hand or face with the paddle, etc. WIll these 2 be sanction penalties as well? I am asking here because i have seen penalties being awarded for the above scenarios. Hope to clarify these doubts and let the referees be updated as well.

(too bad u were not there personally to see this, if not it will be easier to discuss with u this matter)

Kelvin

[kaoz]

Yap, Thanks raymond for ur input. I understand the part on a foul on a "near certain goal" shd result in a GPS. I also understand that within 6m, IF A GK is in place, a dangerous or deliberate foul e.g hitting the shooter in the face or hand while he is attempting a shot, a GPS shd be warranted.

But the above 2 clear-cut scenarios were not what i experienced.
I forgot to add that the foul commited by my teammate (the defender) was in fact quite trivial (at least thats what i feel). (1) He was using his paddle to intercept a pass to the potential shooter, ya his paddle was probably within 1 m of that shooter while the shooter receive that pass and a GK was present. Should that be a "paddle to hand" foul that he commited and a "free shot" be given OR Should this be considered dangerously and deliberate fouling and result in a penalty

Alternatively.. lets say NOW (2) the shooter has received the ball but has not shot. But the paddle was raised close to him within 1 m of reach(whether in front of the shooter or behind him) in an attempt to prevent him from shooting (with a GK in place)..

OR (3) the shooter released the ball, but a defender paddle block ( again either in front or behind the shooter) was so near to the shooter's hand that its infringes a " paddle to hand' foul (this also with GK in place),
BUT in BOTH (2) and (3) it wasnt dangerously fouling him like hitting on the hand or face with the paddle, etc. WIll these 2 be sanction penalties as well? I am asking here because i have seen penalties being awarded for the above scenarios. Hope to clarify these doubts and let the referees be updated as well.

(too bad u were not there personally to see this, if not it will be easier to discuss with u this matter)

Kelvin

i just wondering how to block the shooter from behind when the shooter is trying to take a shot at goal.:confused:

for ur (2) , i seen penalties given when the defender tries to block from behind the shooter.. even though the defender is not hitting the paddle to the hand but he shld knows that when the shooter take a shot at goal, surely his hand will hit the paddle..

just always try to be in front of ur shooter , if not trust ur keeper will block the shot :thumbup: dun do anything to give away penalty or get carded .. :twocents:

[gracie]

Yap, Thanks raymond for ur input. I understand the part on a foul on a "near certain goal" shd result in a GPS. I also understand that within 6m, IF A GK is in place, a dangerous or deliberate foul e.g hitting the shooter in the face or hand while he is attempting a shot, a GPS shd be warranted.

But the above 2 clear-cut scenarios were not what i experienced.
I forgot to add that the foul commited by my teammate (the defender) was in fact quite trivial (at least thats what i feel). (1) He was using his paddle to intercept a pass to the potential shooter, ya his paddle was probably within 1 m of that shooter while the shooter receive that pass and a GK was present. Should that be a "paddle to hand" foul that he commited and a "free shot" be given OR Should this be considered dangerously and deliberate fouling and result in a penalty

Alternatively.. lets say NOW (2) the shooter has received the ball but has not shot. But the paddle was raised close to him within 1 m of reach(whether in front of the shooter or behind him) in an attempt to prevent him from shooting (with a GK in place)..

OR (3) the shooter released the ball, but a defender paddle block ( again either in front or behind the shooter) was so near to the shooter's hand that its infringes a " paddle to hand' foul (this also with GK in place),
BUT in BOTH (2) and (3) it wasnt dangerously fouling him like hitting on the hand or face with the paddle, etc. WIll these 2 be sanction penalties as well? I am asking here because i have seen penalties being awarded for the above scenarios. Hope to clarify these doubts and let the referees be updated as well.

(too bad u were not there personally to see this, if not it will be easier to discuss with u this matter)

Kelvin



Hi Kelvin,

As the ref of that particular match you were referring to, from my point of view, I have decided to call for a GPS as this is what I have interpreted in that situation:

The shooter was driving in towards your left zoner and rode onto the stern of the zoner. As he releases the ball (in my opinion to take a shot, not a pass), the zoner swing his paddle upwards (to block the shot, not the pass) and that was when i called for a time-out and a GPS. It may not have caused any injury to the shooter, but it was what i felt, a dangerous act that might have injure the shooter.

Also, I checked with Raymond with regards to the above situation and he explained to me the situation where a GPS can be considered:

GPS can be considered if a foul took place outside the 6m zone w/o a GK or inside the 6m zone with or w/o a GK where, if the foul was not committed, the fouled player would most likely have scored a goal.

From my interpretion of that particular situation, I felt that it was justifiable that I gave a GPS to the opponent team.


As for point (2) that you have mentioned, I believed it occured where one of the opponent player chased up to you in attempt to block your shot as you drift towards the keeper.

I did not call for a foul in that instance as in my point of view, the opponent managed to chase up to right next to you or slightly in front of you and raise both his arm and his paddle to in attempt to block your shot. He rose his left arm to block your shooting arm and rose his paddle with his right arm in attempt to block the goal post, where a GK was present.

I felt that his action of raising his arm was not dangerous, his paddle was not moving towards you deliberately nor dangerously and the paddle was held up more than 1m away from the ball. Besides that, even though you were drifting into a position close to the keeper, i didnt see an attempt to shoot or pass. What I saw was that you were holding on to the ball and was signalling me to catch a foul, when (in my opinion) there wasn't any foul committed as there wasn't any action taken to attempt a shot or a pass. When you finally decided to shoot, the defender was almost drifting out to the goal-line and the shot (if i was not wrong) was deflected by the GK.

I hope you understand that in both situations, I did what I felt was most justifiable. It wasn't in any way, bias towards the opponent or against your team. I am not the best ref around and am learning along the way. I believe all the refs this year are trying their best to ref a good and fair game.

And to many of the spectators who commented that the refs are bias or are so lousy that we should go take our ref certs again, perhaps all of you should go take the ref cert and then ref the games during the competition before making such senseless remarks. The refs are not there so that you guys can scold or push the blame onto, we're there to try our best to ref a fair game and make sure that each game runs smoothly. So if any of you think the refs are too lousy to ref your games, please go and take a ref cert yourself and make sure you can do a good job before making all those remarks. As a ref, it's quite frustrating to hear such comments and in fact, some of it are pretty insulting. Quite honestly, it's not our obligation to ref during each competition but when we're being put in charge to ref the games, we will try; in the best way we can, to run a smooth game and maintain a neutral stand between the 2 teams.

[haze]

Hi Kelvin,

As the ref of that particular match you were referring to, from my point of view, I have decided to call for a GPS as this is what I have interpreted in that situation:

The shooter was driving in towards your left zoner and rode onto the stern of the zoner. As he releases the ball (in my opinion to take a shot, not a pass), the zoner swing his paddle upwards (to block the shot, not the pass) and that was when i called for a time-out and a GPS. It may not have caused any injury to the shooter, but it was what i felt, a dangerous act that might have injure the shooter.

Also, I checked with Raymond with regards to the above situation and he explained to me the situation where a GPS can be considered:

GPS can be considered if a foul took place outside the 6m zone w/o a GK or inside the 6m zone with or w/o a GK where, if the foul was not committed, the fouled player would most likely have scored a goal.

From my interpretion of that particular situation, I felt that it was justifiable that I gave a GPS to the opponent team.


As for point (2) that you have mentioned, I believed it occured where one of the opponent player chased up to you in attempt to block your shot as you drift towards the keeper.

I did not call for a foul in that instance as in my point of view, the opponent managed to chase up to right next to you or slightly in front of you and raise both his arm and his paddle to in attempt to block your shot. He rose his left arm to block your shooting arm and rose his paddle with his right arm in attempt to block the goal post, where a GK was present.

I felt that his action of raising his arm was not dangerous, his paddle was not moving towards you deliberately nor dangerously and the paddle was held up more than 1m away from the ball. Besides that, even though you were drifting into a position close to the keeper, i didnt see an attempt to shoot or pass. What I saw was that you were holding on to the ball and was signalling me to catch a foul, when (in my opinion) there wasn't any foul committed as there wasn't any action taken to attempt a shot or a pass. When you finally decided to shoot, the defender was almost drifting out to the goal-line and the shot (if i was not wrong) was deflected by the GK.

I hope you understand that in both situations, I did what I felt was most justifiable. It wasn't in any way, bias towards the opponent or against your team. I am not the best ref around and am learning along the way. I believe all the refs this year are trying their best to ref a good and fair game.

And to many of the spectators who commented that the refs are bias or are so lousy that we should go take our ref certs again, perhaps all of you should go take the ref cert and then ref the games during the competition before making such senseless remarks. The refs are not there so that you guys can scold or push the blame onto, we're there to try our best to ref a fair game and make sure that each game runs smoothly. So if any of you think the refs are too lousy to ref your games, please go and take a ref cert yourself and make sure you can do a good job before making all those remarks. As a ref, it's quite frustrating to hear such comments and in fact, some of it are pretty insulting. Quite honestly, it's not our obligation to ref during each competition but when we're being put in charge to ref the games, we will try; in the best way we can, to run a smooth game and maintain a neutral stand between the 2 teams.

i believe that as a player and a ref, we have different pts of view wen we take a different role.
honestly speaking, for all players and spectators supporting the playing team, we will be applauding the ref if it was advantage towards the team we support whether or not the foul was commited and jeering the ref if a foul was called towards the team we're supporting. (deep inside im sure we all know if the fouls shld or shld not haf been called)

as a spectators' pt of view, we'll be watching every foul blown and pass comments and stuff and decide on our own if it shld have been called. (even attempting to influence the referee's call)

as a referee's pt of view, we blow whatever we see as dangerous or unfair.

i believe every single player and/or referee has these times and we also judge whether the referees' are qualified. its only human. but let's not judge if the referees has made a good call or not after games and out of pool since wat has been done cant be undone.

like wat gracie said, its not easy being a good referee (watsmore dis yr's refs are mostly not-so-experienced) and the same with players, its not easy being a good player coz wat we tink is best may not be wat the others tink is best so tts wat competitiions are for.

players play their best to fight for best teams, whilst referees try their best to conduct a fair and safe game. all in all, we players and/or referees are in the same boat!!:cool:

watever it is, lets just leave wats past behind and move on to bring canoe-polo to a higher level.

cheer and jeer all u wan at the referees' calls but dun judge them since we're not in their exact shoes. leave ur comments within urselves and just let it pass. u really wun noe how it feels unless u're the exact person in the exact shoes. even if the calls were totally like :thumbdown , juz move on and fight harder the next round.

:cheers:
lets make the mistakes/comments made a learning point for all. :thumbup:

[DART]

hi guys, being a referee myself, i feel that its quite a norm for ppl to jeer at or even tease at you.. jus like how my own team mates say i am a bad referee.. hehe.. but i dun really mind.. cos being a referee and moreover not paid referee... you are doing the community a favour to ensure a game is smoothly run. So lets just ignore those nonsense from the spectators and jus concentrate on the game.. With regards to ppl counting down without following the shot clock(for their own entertainment). i think the referees should be more alert on their own and not be bothered by the spectators if not during the games your decision might be affected by the wrong beings out there.. Most importantly, be firm and be stern.. So long as you think that it is right stick to it..

Lastly, i urge all referees including myself to assist with the final day of this year national champs as the organisers are really short of referees and heard from them that there are referees that told them they are out of the game so they wouldnt be coming.. Lets be fair, lets help one another so that the day when a favour to be return will be carry out without any hesitation.. Thanks... :twocents: :thumbup:

[sm82]

Hi all,

have just been to the recent World Champs in Amster, really seen some world class plays as well as referees. I feel that the way they ref the games are so good that nobody argues wif them. They are always in control of the game!

Actually, the way they ref the games are all base on common logical sense. Safety is a priority in the game. i can see that most of the spectators there doesn't play polo, but they could understand every foul that was committed. u wouldn't hear someone askin "wat foul was that?" My pt here is that in sg the refs is just simply following wat was written in the ICF rules directly prog in their minds w/o thinking. Seriously i feel that it is very dangerous to play polo in sg.

There are many "brainless" fouls, but i think this is the most absurd!!! i seriously do not understand wat were they thinking.

i call this foul the "BOAT IS MORE IMPORTANT THATN YOUR HEAD/NECK"

it goes like this, i hav the ball and is sandwiched by 2 oppo, one gives mi a hand tackle, and all i c is the oppo's boat beside mi, so natural reaction is to brace myself by using my hand/elbow to rest on the oppo's boat. Sg refs will call a holding by mi. So i learned and subsequent goin into the same situation, i use my shoulder/head to brace myself to prevent a holding, but was stil called for holding!!!! Would some really expert ref or experience player from sg tell mi how can i hold on to the ball in that situation and not get called for holding????

Someone did once told mi that i hav to break my elbow/hand/neck/head so that the ref will give mi that foul. Feels that its ridiculous, but i hav really seen someone doin it, was lucky his head didnt break but instead, the helmat did its job, protected his head and cracked. it was sent to the scrap yard ever since.

Don't know if u all understands wat i talking abt, buti believe i hav told a lot of ppl abt this. my senior was a very good player but quit becos he thinks the rule is stupid and says that his head/arms/life si more important than the acrobats that we used to train in!

the refs are always complaining every becos of jeers and boos, but i feel that some fouls are obviously dangerous but you choose to go by the book whh you do not even understand. This is so sad.

i think mayb is the rules that you know are wrong or mayb its just you. we shld find the root of the prob instead of just blaming/complaining/whining during or aft every comp

:thumbup:

[Batman]

Hi all,
Just to make the picture clearer. Ermm.. Gracie> The GPS which u called.. I verified with my teammate who commited the foul. He was just intercepting the pass BEFORE it got to the shooter. THE SHOOTER DIDNT raise or release the ball. Maybe.. Maybe it appear to u from your angle that the shooter caught the ball first then my teammate (the zoner) raised his paddle (but he wasn't attempting to shoot). Actually even so..IN MY OPINION.. i felt that it was NOT dangerous enough to warrant a penalty. Of course.. thats my point of view.. and i agree this kind of thing is very SUBJECTIVE. So perhaps.. UNLESS U ARE VERY VERY SURE its a GPS, maybe it will be good to clarify with the other referee the actual situation before giving the GPS. ? The other referee that day actually seemed a bit dubious (at least thats what i feel la) then upon discussion, If both referee agrees, or if the other referee didn't really see what was happening, then let it be a GPS. Its better to be careful to check than to give a call like GPS immediately (which is a serious disadvantage to the other team), wouldnt it?

With regards to MY situation..actually i didnt mean to raise it up. the scenarios (2) and (3) were hypothetical situations that i drew up to allow discussions whether a GPS will be awarded.. . ( Since u brought it up, i feel that i should clarify) The actual thing that happened to me (i know best coz i was the person involved and i reviewed the videocamera also) was that the opponent caught up with me, he uses his left hand to hand tackle me while i was twisting my body in the act of shooting.I managed to withstand the tackle and after that immediately i shot. Yes.. i shot the ball... but the defender's right hand with paddle (not sure paddle or hand) hit my hand when i released the ball and thus the shot went off THEN i looked at u, wanting a GPS to be called. It wasnt as what u said at all. And also BECAUSE.. the time was winding down.. i couln't be holding on the ball and NOT SHOOT but looking at u and wanting u to make a call? Anyone would have attempted to shoot in that desperate situation.. I personally felt it was a dangerous attempt by the opponent and a GPS should be awarded.
BUT BUT ultimately.... since both u and jackson didnt see that foul and didnt call a GPS. i couldn't and i didn't argue the call or rather Non-call.

Please note that i am not trying to undermine the referees here or pin pointing whose fault is it...and Gracie.. this really isnt directed at u.. I don't think u are biased against my team and i actually thought u are one of the better female referees that can ref a guy's game. i was just clarifying the actual thing that happened.. WHICH is NO LONGER IMPORTANT since BOTH incidents had passed and was determined as what it had been there and then by the referees in those games.

AND which is what canoepolo should be.. Obey the referee calls or Non-calls and play the game. What should be taken from here is how to judge better and more consistent for a GPS in future games. which was the purpose of me starting this thread

I understand that a referee is a very tedious job and subjected to jeering and criticisms of the spectators and players and i understand that not every call can be seen correctly and exactly as what happened as i had ref in my school's games before. I applaud the referees this year who volunteered to ref so many of the matches ( even consecutive games ) as we have shortage of referees this year. Its definitely not an easy job and i agree we should appreciate their efforts instead of booing or jeering at them.

I am still waiting for my scenarios (2) and (3) to be discussed if it should be a GPS or not. as i am still not so sure what should be called in such a similar event.

Raymond> whats your stand? Should these 2 be call a GPS even if it wasn't a dangerous or deliberate foul on the shooter?or any other views?

As for DART> I feel that time counting by the spectators SHD BE CONTROLLED seriously. U can say the referees be alert and not be swayed into believing those ppl (be it their own entertainment or not). BUT there are five other players in the pool that might believe that the time is really counting down and THIS FAKE COUNTING down of time IS TRULY irresponsible and childish and its gonna affect someone. So i urge the referees and the organisers to take a SERIOUS STAND on it. Its an extremely unsportsmanship behaviour that should be curbed. Jeering can still be tolerated.. but not this. As i said earlier.. win or lose let it be determined by the strength of the opposing teams and not by outsiders like the spectators.

Kelvin
pardon me for the extremely long thread

[juJube]

Aiya...

1) Eliza and me are referees representing 2 different institutes dis yr, if u had seen the list carefully, eventho, we're playing for the same team.

2) Dat fake countdown, Eliza blew the timeout but she had her back facing the clock. How to see like dat? And she was at the other corner of the pool. I had, beforehand, given her a signal dat the countdown was wrong. And dat time when she blew, i was watchin out for keeper's foul. You think i will noe she is gg to blow meh?

Pfft...

[haze]

honestly, althou technically speaking both the spectators and referees were at fault, and since eliza's back was facing the clock (but she cld haf glanced back)[no offence, juz a suggestion, i dunno wat i wld haf done but anyway] i still feel, like wat kelvin said, the spectators were extremely childish in tt manner. as a matter a fact, there were many unfrenly comments made by them in many other matches. i believe u ppl noe hu u are. but wen they had to officiate a game, dere they were dreaming away. funny den but its like :confused: :eek: .

the best part was, they tried the FAKE counting down ting again at other matches. i mean, COME ON!!! ur seniors i believe haf taught u well about sportsmenship and they dun behave like tt for an example. seriously, u ppl shld be ashamed. jeering and cheering for the players and referees' call, fair enuff, i do tt too. but to have such unsporting behavior, pls, :eek: .

i believe that ur team plays well and in the pool ur behavior is pretty impressive, but as a spectator, :thumbdown

[DART]

hehe... make sure you know which team you are talking about.. cos not only one school is seating at that section ok? haha.. :thumbup: anyway i believe in all ball games referees are always jeer at or mock at, cos its jus part of the fun being a spectator.. maybe the count down is abit too extensive but nevertheless relax its jus part of the game.. during soccer matches, referees were also being jeered at or even fouls given by them were disagreed.. but u can always see them staying very firmly at their decisions.. thats professional.. being a junior referee like you n me.. i believe we need an allowance of space to be given because we surely make mistakes one.. hence, maybe the organisers will do their part to tell the spectators not to do it but after all its still up to that bunch of clowns to decide whether they wana do it..
Chill!! part of the game!!! hehe..
:wavey:

Stan

[Fievel]

...
...
The actual thing that happened to me (i know best coz i was the person involved and i reviewed the videocamera also) was that the opponent caught up with me, he uses his left hand to hand tackle me while i was twisting my body in the act of shooting.I managed to withstand the tackle and after that immediately i shot. Yes.. i shot the ball... but the defender's right hand with paddle (not sure paddle or hand) hit my hand when i released the ball and thus the shot went off THEN i looked at u, wanting a GPS to be called. It wasnt as what u said at all. And also BECAUSE.. the time was winding down.. i couln't be holding on the ball and NOT SHOOT but looking at u and wanting u to make a call? Anyone would have attempted to shoot in that desperate situation.. I personally felt it was a dangerous attempt by the opponent and a GPS should be awarded.
BUT BUT ultimately.... since both u and jackson didnt see that foul and didnt call a GPS. i couldn't and i didn't argue the call or rather Non-call.
...

Kelvin
pardon me for the extremely long thread

Come on man,

are you trying to say i'm biased? (am i sensitive or am i right? but i think you are & it pisses me off!)
A TP & NUS game. Why should i be biased? Its a IVP game. Yes, my juniors are in the finals. Both TP & NUS are strong teams. Any team that can proceed will give my juniors a very tough fight in the finals. Why should i be biased? Look at your video cam again. Look carefully, did you manage to spot any fouls that are blown against your team when there ain't any? Pls show me. I really would LOVE to see that.

firstly, both me & gracie are humans.
- yes, there can be human errors.
- and there are alot of things that are too fast for human eyes to notice/see.

i believe you have to agree with me in these 2 points. right?

as what you said, i summarize in steps,
1) "he uses his left hand to hand tackle me while i was twisting my body in the act of shooting"
2) "I managed to withstand the tackle and after that immediately i shot"
3) "but the defender's right hand with paddle (not sure paddle or hand) hit my hand when i released the ball and thus the shot went off"

Let's see,
Push, shoot, hit, out.
steps 1, 2, 3 are all in the act of shooting.


What is i see is,
The opponent player push you while you are shooting, shooting accuracy disrupted. Thus, the ball went out.

Everything went very smoothly. Its not just the refs saw the game. The spectators too. But how come no one screamed for a corner?
Its a very normal human reaction for singapore spectators to scream for a corner if the refs are obviously wrong.

Lastly, do you think the game that me & gracie ref is one of the most well controlled & fair game in the competition? Given that the intensity of the game is high, coz only the winner can proceed to the final. Who dun wan to do their school proud.

Btw, that's a long post. Not thread. Tootz!

Jackson
A player/referee who is DAMN DAMN pissed off! by Kelvin of NUS.

P.S. If you liked to rely on your video cam so much, I dun think SCF would reject a high technology refereeing game if you could sponsor all the equipments. :)

[kaoz]

hmmm.. i sure she knows is not SP people who is giving the wrong count down.. but still is our fault for not stopping them ... SORRY !! :worship: ( i was too busy laughing at their actions) .

maybe if the referee got the time to check on the timings?? , maybe the players also shld have the time to check on the wrong count down timing?? :eek: :confused:

personally i feel those who r giving the wrong timings intention is not to cause any team to lose or win by doing all these tricks.. like wat stan has said.. is only for their own fun... i believe they will learn from their lesson though....

p.s stan: next time rem to see the timing ourselves, in case people sabo us :thumbup:

[DART]

hi hi captain!!! i will take note of it..

ps:jackson relax k? maybe he is jus trying to clear his doubts.. then unintentionally mentioned it la.. relax k? Different referees have different interpretations of games.. So long as during the game, you are the referee, you will have the final say or stand.. Kelvin is just trying to bring the topic up so that once the final ruling is out.. referees for the next competition who encounter the same situation will be able to handle it better k? Chill... This is a discussion forum for open talks.. so relax... dun get heated up... :twocents:



Stan

[kaoz]

chill jackson.. kelvin just trying to let the rest of the referees knows what shld be called during few situations like wat he mentioned..


:frosty: :frosty: :frosty: :frosty: :frosty: :frosty: :frosty: :frosty: :frosty: :frosty:

[haze]

hmmm.. stanley, u very junior ref meh? deni mux be like super minute lo..
as to kaoz, (pai sei, too lazy to check hu u really are) but anyway, i believe at tt pt in time was an attacking mode and there was less den a minute left so like players wun keep looking constantly at the clock ba..

but i believe the rest of the refs were like 'once bitten twice shy'.
its not an evil intention but it was way too misleading to the playing teams.

[poof]

hey,

i think that posts on the forums aint abt shooting at anyone in particular but just expressions on how we can improve further games and competitions.
as a player in the game that the referee blew the whistle before the actual time, i personally feel disappointed.
knowing that the spectators were shouting away and counting down. and i couldnt get the message across to my own teammates was frustrating because the spectators were shouting louder den me. and when the referee blew the whistle its just a disappointment because the ref is supposed to be in control of the game.
that was how i felt as a player. and im sure that whoever in such a situation would feel the same way.

even though it is inevitable that the situation is such,
i hope that in future that the spectators mostly being players be more considerate because im sure that noone would want to be in such a situation. imagine losing because your last chance to win was ruined by not your opponents but the spectators.

i hope the referees whether backfaced or not take more control of the game. and not let others affect your decision or affect your control of the game.

can i suggest that officials use those loud horns to indicate the end of the game. that would ensure no confusion or whatsoever. and the referees can also concentrate on watching for last min fouls or penalties as well.

eu

[althevin]

Hi everyone, just would like to add a bit more.. :p

Maybe for future competitions it would be good to have a short referees meeting before the start of the whole competition to clear any doubts. Realised each individual referee sees things very differently from one another, hence sometimes we may find one another's calls weird..esp where our own safety is concerned..ie the paddle fouls and illegal kayak tackle. Maybe we need more communication among all the referees?

It might be good to organise a refresher course for refs as well as for interested players every 6 months/yearly? At least the refereeing will be more consistant among everyone?

I'm a referee too and honestly the spectators can be very distracting. But that's all part of the game and the atmosphere isn't it? I think we have come to understand whatever jeering/shouting/etc etc is all done in that moment of passion..don't think anyone means to make a personal attack. Either that or I'm just blur la. haha.

haha sorry Jackson, don't think NUS can sponser SCF...if we had the extra budget we prob would buy school vamps for ourselves..very expensive for each of us to buy our own boat. Very broke ah..:p

[Batman]

Hi,
Thanks to those who understood my position and helped my explain my stand. Right from the start of this thread.. my intention was very clear> to discuss the situations involving GPS which are for everyone's learning purposes.

Maybe those of you who misinterpreted it have not read from the start of this thread. If it has caused any misunderstanding unknowingly, i offer my sincerest apologies> esp to jackson. Its not a coincidence that everyone else in this thread so far knows what i am talking about and thus help me in explaining,that including your own teammates..Hope u can calm down and understand whats going on also. I didn't think u are biased to my team nor do i think gracie or ANY referees in this competition is biased against any teams, but if u have misinterpreted it that way too, I'm sorry. I have sent u a private msg clarifying myself, if its still not clear.. please mail me back personally.

I have no wish to affect this saturday's game with this thread.. If any way, i hope it to be a positive way.. in terms of how to call a GPS appropriately.

I didnt raise up the situation involving myself right from the start of this thread because i feel that there's no need to. It was clear cut..Because both referees didn't see it that way that i see it, i have to accept it. Everybody has to accept it if this happens to them too, even if its a last few seconds thing and even if its a deciding match. Different people see the same thing differently and yes, nobody can catch everything that happens in the pool. BUT Gracie brought my case up so i had to clarify myself. Still it dosen't change anything. I'm sure there must be similiar scenarios everywhere else that the referees do not see calls as what u experienced personally but still.. we have to obey the referees and carry on playing the game.. This is canoepolo. I hope my stand is clear and there's NO NEED to talk about my case anymore

let me requote myself..

"Please note that i am not trying to undermine the referees here or pin pointing whose fault is it......... i was just clarifying the actual thing that happened.. WHICH is NO LONGER IMPORTANT since BOTH incidents had passed and was determined as what it had been there and then by the referees in those games.

AND which is what canoepolo should be.. Obey the referee calls or Non-calls and play the game. What should be taken from here is how to judge better and more consistent for a GPS in future games. which was the purpose of me starting this thread"

Good luck to all the teams playing this sat.

[kaoz]

hehe... make sure you know which team you are talking about.. cos not only one school is seating at that section ok? haha.. :thumbup: anyway i believe in all ball games referees are always jeer at or mock at, cos its jus part of the fun being a spectator.. maybe the count down is abit too extensive but nevertheless relax its jus part of the game.. during soccer matches, referees were also being jeered at or even fouls given by them were disagreed.. but u can always see them staying very firmly at their decisions.. thats professional.. being a junior referee like you n me.. i believe we need an allowance of space to be given because we surely make mistakes one.. hence, maybe the organisers will do their part to tell the spectators not to do it but after all its still up to that bunch of clowns to decide whether they wana do it..
Chill!! part of the game!!! hehe..
:wavey:

Stan

hi to all refs,

can i suggest that if a wrong call is called, (eg. a corner is given, then ref realised actually goal line start ball ) , pls call for a time-out first before changing direaction of play..:thumbup: seen some cases during this comp that some teams lost fast break attacks bcos of ref's decision.. The time-out is to let the other team that reacted to the first call to get back to defend their goal rather than stunned there for 3 seconds when ref suddenly change their call.

This is wat the refs at asterdam did when they gave a wrong call, FAIR for both teams . Staying firm at ur decision is good, but i feel is still ok to change ur decisions if u give enough time for both teams to react !!

:twocents: :twocents:

Rookies No. 7 :D

[DART]

hi haze, i think i still quite junior lor.. though i might have been referee for a couple of times overseas before but i think i still junior in terms of experience.. hehe.. ;) ok back to the topic, i think its inevitable for us to have so much of disagreement with regards to the rules and misinterpretation with the kinds of fouls. I think somehow thru the entire post i saw someone suggesting for a refresher course and also to train up more referees.. i totally agreeded with this.. if you guys dun mind i can take the initiative to approach SCF to see whether they are willing to come up with any of such courses ok? so wait for the news ba... it might take some time.. haha.. but should be before SRRR06/07... wait out then...


Lastly, i think with regards to the scenario of the GPS, it believe it shall be a never ending discussion of the rules as different referees have different perspective in seeing a foul that occured.. But so long as we stick to or at least be near to the rules as stated i think we should be right. But as all of us understand, we just want the game to be safe & fair and most importantly to be FUN!!! i think for this year as raymond and sean is busy with their schedule, there isn't any chief referees around hence things get abit out of hand.. Nevertheless, i believe all referees have come together so far and had already done their best.. I BELIEVE ALL OF THEM AND THE ORGANISERS DESERVED A ROUND OF APPLAUSE FOR THEIR HARD WORK..
and lets wait out for the new refereeing course to be conducted...

Cheers...
Stan

PS: haze fyi kaoz is rookies captain.. haha..

[juJube]

........ fyi kaoz is rookies captain.. haha..




wat?! Kaoz is coach? Kaoz...:drunk:

[kaoz]

wat?! Kaoz is coach? Kaoz...:drunk:
Yes?? any problem ?? :cool: i treat you eat ur fav food , wan ??

[Fievel]

Yes?? any problem ?? :cool: i treat you eat ur fav food , wan ??
u mean pork chop rice?
lolx

[gracie]

u mean pork chop rice?
lolx


no la. it's BA CHOR MEE! :thumbup:

[juJube]

u mean pork chop rice?
lolx

wah lau, don be such a crookie lah u both... damn out of pt lor. Did u not see wat the thread is for...??? Silly men. *shakes head

[kaoz]

u mean pork chop rice?
lolx
is BA CHOR mee !! :thumbup: :thumbup: ADD BA CHOR for syaz too !!!

[Raymond Liow]

But the above 2 clear-cut scenarios were not what i experienced.
I forgot to add that the foul commited by my teammate (the defender) was in fact quite trivial (at least thats what i feel). (1) He was using his paddle to intercept a pass to the potential shooter, ya his paddle was probably within 1 m of that shooter while the shooter receive that pass and a GK was present. Should that be a "paddle to hand" foul that he commited and a "free shot" be given OR Should this be considered dangerously and deliberate fouling and result in a penalty

Alternatively.. lets say NOW (2) the shooter has received the ball but has not shot. But the paddle was raised close to him within 1 m of reach(whether in front of the shooter or behind him) in an attempt to prevent him from shooting (with a GK in place)..

OR (3) the shooter released the ball, but a defender paddle block ( again either in front or behind the shooter) was so near to the shooter's hand that its infringes a " paddle to hand' foul (this also with GK in place),
BUT in BOTH (2) and (3) it wasnt dangerously fouling him like hitting on the hand or face with the paddle, etc. WIll these 2 be sanction penalties as well? I am asking here because i have seen penalties being awarded for the above scenarios. Hope to clarify these doubts and let the referees be updated as well.
Kelvin

Hi all,

First, I would like to say that I have faith that none of our referees are biased, and each of them try their best for the games they officiate. Knowing Kelvin personally, I do not think he had any malicious intent when posting his comments. So I hope that the parties involved in this thread would regard each others' posts in good faith and always give others the benefit of the doubt.

Second, it would be difficult to judge a situation based on my understanding of the descriptives. So I can only give general comments based on what I comprehend thus far.

Degree of danger/deliberation

The degree of danger or deliberation does not depend on the circumstances under which the foul was committed. There is no discount on the level of danger or deliberation should it be committed under less compromising conditions, say, near the centreline where neither player is fighting for the ball or going for the goal.

Factors of consideration for a GPS

What is then considered a dangerous/deliberate foul?
This is a very subjective question.
A foul would be considered dangerous if the referee feels that the fouling player has acted in a way such that the fouled player would potentially be injured. We should not wait for a player to be physically injured before declaring a foul dangerous. And the referee needs to consider this carefully before making a decision.
A foul would be considered deliberate if the referee feels that there is no doubt for the fouling player to conduct play fairly or safely. In other words, he could have chosen NOT to commit the foul yet CHOSE to do so.

Bear in mind that when a referee makes a call, he/she does not do it based on the player's intent, but based on what he/she perceives of the player's intent. If you as a player do not want to be caught in a situation whereby the referee may perceive your actions different from how you intended them, then make your actions clear to the referee. Try not to push the envelope and make the referee walk the line. Because the referee makes the final call, not you.

Kelvin, my internet time is running out. Hope you can apply my comments above on your qns.

That said, a GPS is a very close call and would have to thought through carefully before a referee decides. If need be, discuss with your other referee. Or other more experienced referees present. A GPS is a major call and should not be taken lightly.

[Batman]

Thanks Raymond. Hope all the input can be used for future games and the comp later (its 8am now..comp starting at 9am!), haha.. thats if the referees check this forum this morning. anyway thanks to all for ur valuable inputs

Agree that GPS in those situations is very subjective. Degree of intent judged by the referee is very important here. It need not happen when the dangerous act is commited already.. It should be when the dangerous act is going to happen, as deemed by the ref. Please be prudent when u decide to call one and do not hesitate to consult the other referee if there's any little doubt u have.

Fievel and I has cleared the air. No hard feelings.Just a little misunderstanding. Right Jackson?
Good luck to all later

[Fievel]

YUp!

Jus GAVE OnE GPS TODAY!!

HOOOOOOO~~!!!

[Raymond Liow]

OK I'm back in SG.

Good to learn that the air has cleared.

Well, I'm open for qns on doubts you may have had or for clarifications on the posts I made earlier. Barring the backlog I need to clear in the office, I have slightly more control over my time to discuss with any of you.

The referees in your teams or your captains would have my other contacts if you prefer to take it offline. If I can't pick up your call, leave me an sms and I'll return call.