Club gear

[becks.c]

Hi Guys,

Just wondering what people's thoughts are on the role a club should play in providing gear for use by members.

There seems to be a bit of a spectrum of offerings across the country.

What do you think clubs should provide?

[mike1982]

what sort of spectrum have you seen?

is there a club that offers composit boats at the mo or was that just in there as a for instance?




Hi Guys,

Just wondering what people's thoughts are on the role a club should play in providing gear for use by members.

There seems to be a bit of a spectrum of offerings across the country.

What do you think clubs should provide?

[becks.c]

Kiwi Canoe Polo Club offers some composite kayaks for use by Elite players.

Right now we have 1 x carbon boat and 1 x kevlar boat. We've just placed an order for 2 more composite boats for assignment to elite players.

We also have 12 new acrobats, Plus about 8 Cyclones and other assorted plastics. - these are used in our week night grades and also may be borrowed at no charge by our members for training - upon request.

Our elite boats will be funded with Gaming machie trust money. Modest top ups from club surplus if required. Elite players must make a formal written application for use of the kayaks.

--
I thinkthat Horowhenua Canoe (?Polo) Club out of levin provides composite boats, although what the rules around use are I'm not sure.

Maybe committee members from other clubs could comment on what they offer?

[mum]

The Wairarapa only supplies plastic when it come to boats. We have gone down the road that once the kids we work with go up in skills they can purchase their own gear.

As nearly all of our work is done with the under 18 age group we feel plastic is they way for us.

Mum

Kiwi Canoe Polo Club offers some composite kayaks for use by Elite players.

Right now we have 1 x carbon boat and 1 x kevlar boat. We've just placed an order for 2 more composite boats for assignment to elite players.

We also have 12 new acrobats, Plus about 8 Cyclones and other assorted plastics. - these are used in our week night grades and also may be borrowed at no charge by our members for training - upon request.

Our elite boats will be funded with Gaming machie trust money. Modest top ups from club surplus if required. Elite players must make a formal written application for use of the kayaks.

--
I thinkthat Horowhenua Canoe (?Polo) Club out of levin provides composite boats, although what the rules around use are I'm not sure.

Maybe committee members from other clubs could comment on what they offer?

[Cainus]

the word 'elite' sounds awfully pretentious and marks way for elitism and favouritism. it gives those of lower grades a feeling of being inadequate and viewing those 'elite' players who regard themselves of higher status can be disconcerning and can discourage those who would like to better themselves from reaching that higher level. my two cents anyway

[James]

the word 'elite' sounds awfully pretentious and marks way for elitism and favouritism. it gives those of lower grades a feeling of being inadequate and viewing those 'elite' players who regard themselves of higher status can be disconcerning and can discourage those who would like to better themselves from reaching that higher level. my two cents anyway


Once again NZ's famous tall poppy syndrome?? Elite/ top/ better/ Club Squads/ Rep team/NZ Squads???? I think the point is that the better players have to be called something. By providing gear (or some gear) for the elite players you are removing barriers to joining that elite.......surely this makes the elite more accessible?

In an ideal world clubs would be able to provide top level gear to all, but unfortunately there just isn't enough money available so choices have to be made as to how to allocate equipment. Obviously the club fleet to run the majority of the grades should take priority.

As a point "Elite" players are generally players that face the greatest costs associated with the sport, they are also in a lot of the clubs taking on the administration roles. (I would estimate that I personally spent about $5 000 a year on canoe polo since 2002).

Cainus does raise a good point about favouritism though: I would advise a club to put in place very robust systems to allocate top level gear. Quite often when applying for funding you may not receive the full ammount and this can cause problems if not dealt with before it happens.

[becks.c]

It's sad that you choose to identify the word 'elite' with something negative.

Without role models, how can our up and coming players have anything to aspire to?

I don't want to turn this post into a debate on terminology - so maybe we should start a new post. Perhaps I should have used a different word

FYI, Currently,Kiwi actually subsidises play of newer players more than it does for our 'elite' players. e.g. the same grade fee applies to those who have their own boats as those who don't. Kiwi doesn't use club funds for NL squads or NZ Squad members. Additionally, 'elite' players are hugely over represented in the voluntary roles within our club. And without our 'elite' players, there wouldn't actually be a club, and 169 players wouldn't have a place to go and play canoe polo - or kayaks to play in, or referees... in palmy.

Maybe 'High achievers' is a better word :thumbup: . I'm sorry if the word 'elite' implied that those non high level players are of any less value to our club than other members.

Thanks for your feedback Cainus - it'd be really great to have your input on what you think clubs should offer by way of gear.

Cheers

[Cainus]

i'm not too sure how the other clubs go about their business in terms of league nights and administration, however with our club the effort is equal amongst all grades and not just the high level players.

I'm sorry if my criticism of the naming convention for the high level players has upset any, i think such a word should be left with the NZ government who thought best to provide free tertiary education to only those of high academic level.

as for my input on what clubs should off, i believe clubs should only provide plastic boats for league nights and training.

[Paul]

There is a pretty strong moral hazard involved here... if a club supplies composite boats they are going to get thrashed by SOME people... "Its not my boat, who cares" "I didnt pay for it" etc

[mike1982]

Im ok with elite correct me if im wrong but to me that means anyone selected to play in a national leauge team A or B grade

some decent gear would be hugely beneficial to those in B grade struggling to break into A because they are paddling a plastic boat or a second/fifth hand stingray that fills up after a half or an outdated design that is too slow

I voted for plastic but after a bit of thought Im gonna change my vote to the last option - which I cant officially do on the forum bugger

[vish]

One way of doing it:
If you apply for funding for composite boats, let the players who were involved in the application use them for the specific event, and then give them the option to buy them, or let the club sell them off so that general equipment suited to beginners can be purchased.

Why might that work? It means the boats are used for top level competition as intended, but that they are private property before they get too trashed. Meanwhile the club can then purchase balls, helmets, plastic boats or paddles, and build on the gear they have to promote the sport.

As far as elite versus social is concerned:

It depends very much on the players and clubs involved. Some elite players have found themselves not quite 'elite' enough and have had to buy their own boats.

Nobody can afford to alienate club members by advantaging one group at the expense of others. A good social level of players is essential for supporting fundraising initiatives; elite players often provide coaching, administrative support and sometimes even a little entertainment.

As far as I'm concerned, clubs should own boats that allow novice players to try out the sport. Novice players are people who often have several sports on the go and need a chance to try out canoe polo without committing to a huge expense.

The clubs don't want to spend all their time and money fixing kayaks, but unfortunately both plastic and composite kayaks require regular maintenance, so perhaps clubs should consider the lease arrangements that European clubs have when they own expensive equipment. (Ask Inger about it.)

Performance equipment is a highly individualised choice, and the privilege of having a club provide that level of equipment should be for specific competition rather than regular use. Regular use at local level degrades equipment. Using performance equipment for all members of a club, on the other hand, works against the point of having performance kayaks- for optimal performance the boat should be set up for one person.

The needs of the many do outweigh the few. In other words, players who want regular access to performance gear should be prepared to purchase it, even if initially it can be funded via clubs.

Oh, and one slight addition. I have had to maintain plastic kayaks as well as composite and neither are easy to keep in order. The Acrobats and Cyclones lost their bumpers constantly and footpegs were a rare luxury. PCC have composite powerplays that are leaky tubs, but they do have footpegs and they are slowly fixing them. When I refer to perfomance level I mean especially carbon but also kevlar kayaks such as the range of Vampires, Revenge, etc. They are lovely boats but stingrays, powerplays and the star I believe are better for novice paddlers. Plastic still wins as far as durability is concerned but where women and young players are concerned they are not encouraging to use because they are too big. If you had composite boats for young players and women they would theoretically not be as trashed, so long as you kept them for those grades and had a budget for maintenance...

:twocents: x 50

[James]

A couple people in the thread have brought up the point that elite boats shouldn't be bought as it disadvantages the many? As long as the many are supplied with good quality club gear for the league nights, i fail to see how they are disadvantaged?

With regards to purchasing the equipment after the event, I think that people should contact the funding bodies to ensure they are opperating within the law and the intent of the funding bodies guideline.

I think that the elite players are a great way to apply for top level boats.....use them as leverage. Every-time there is an event (Worlds/ oceania) apply for new gear and pass on their old gear down the line. This way the good level gear supplied by the club gets expanded and more benefit. This is certainly the philosophy at Kiwi. We're building for the long term.

[mum]

There is nothing wrong with elite Becks, you used a great word , that is just what those players are.

For Wairarapa's part we work with very young kids and schools use our boats during the day, so composite boats wouldn't work for us really. Any funding we get for gear at this point can only go toward replacing gear both Canoe Polo and river that was had it when Robin started playing.


In the future it may be a direction we could go

Mum
A couple people in the thread have brought up the point that elite boats shouldn't be bought as it disadvantages the many? As long as the many are supplied with good quality club gear for the league nights, i fail to see how they are disadvantaged?

With regards to purchasing the equipment after the event, I think that people should contact the funding bodies to ensure they are opperating within the law and the intent of the funding bodies guideline.

I think that the elite players are a great way to apply for top level boats.....use them as leverage. Every-time there is an event (Worlds/ oceania) apply for new gear and pass on their old gear down the line. This way the good level gear supplied by the club gets expanded and more benefit. This is certainly the philosophy at Kiwi. We're building for the long term.

[Aaron Fear-Ross]

An interesting question.

At the club I play with in London they have both plastic and composite boats, the latter being funded, I think, by a combination of local body grants and club run tournaments.
These boats are only used by the Youth players in the club and only up until the time that they purchase their own and have given the club the ability to be competitive in the National League as well as National and International tournaments.

I think when this system is put in place that you have to be careful not to allow the club to be taken advantage of and that strict rules should be put in place around how long it should be before a club member should be purchasing their own equipment.

I don't have any problem with a club purchasing equipment for the 'elite' players to use but I don't think it is neccessary for the player to 'own' the equipment. I think that they should only use the boat/kit in tournaments and that training should be in their own kit. This way the club has a better chance of performing well tournaments but at the same time the kit lasts a lot longer.

Now, saying all this I do quite strongly think that new players to the sport should always start in platic boats as otherwise they do not appreciate the higher standard equipment.

So there we go

A