C.S. Canoes

[Bungy]

Hello

Does anyone have any information regarding boats made by C.S. Canoes in Italy?

Models
Build quality etc..

Cheers:wavey:

Bungy

[the deacon]

Bungy
I do,
Or get in touch with me, or
You can get in touch with them directly at their website: www.cscanoe.com (http://www.cscanoe.com)
:twocents:

Hello

Does anyone have any information regarding boats made by C.S. Canoes in Italy?

Models
Build quality etc..

Cheers:wavey:

Bungy

[Craig]

How Would You Get a demo of this boat as I have never seen them around and am looking for a new boat.

[the deacon]

Hi Craig,
If you will have a wee bit of patience, why don't you wait until the beginning of July when CS Canoes will have a brand new model canoe polo boat ready for display and sale?
This will be a totally newly designed canoe made in three versions. The most popular size (for paddlers weighing 70-80 kg) made in Kevlar/Carbon/Vacuum will make its official debut at our 16th International at San Giorgio di Nogaro on the 9th & 10 July for all to see and try. :cool:
I can assure you that it will be worth the while to wait and see it before shopping around :D
:cheers:



How Would You Get a demo of this boat as I have never seen them around and am looking for a new boat.

[MarkP]

If the boat is not made under licence and is a copy of an official design certified by the BCU then this boat I believe will not be legal for BCU competitions. If the design has not been passed by the BCU at all then once again this is something that will need to be done.
I believe there are two options the 1st is to get the design approved the second is to get an individual boat approved. worth checking this out before you buy a boat you may not be able to use in domestic competition.

sorry if this post is unpopular with some readers but this should be stated

[the deacon]

Mark,
These boats will be made under the manufactures own licence and are not copies of any existing design, be it British, Italian or whatsoever.
It will be AN ORIGINAL !!!!!
However, I will get in touch with the manufacturer and tell him about the BCU approval seal for any player who would want to use the boat in the UK, and will touch base again on this to let y'all know.
:cheers:


If the boat is not made under licence and is a copy of an official design certified by the BCU then this boat I believe will not be legal for BCU competitions. If the design has not been passed by the BCU at all then once again this is something that will need to be done.
I believe there are two options the 1st is to get the design approved the second is to get an individual boat approved. worth checking this out before you buy a boat you may not be able to use in domestic competition.

sorry if this post is unpopular with some readers but this should be stated

[Martijn]

Hi ,

I understand that the newly made model is CS Canoes design..
But I do wonder, as Mark says.. are the other models made under licence? (Fighter/Nitrox/Mistik)

[the deacon]

I think that it is ethically correct to state things as they stand and not let things go 'the murky way'.
To set the matters right, I have just spoken to the owner and he gave me the following information:
Pretender: in PP is manufactured under licence
Revenge: is manufactured under licence from Double Dutch
Fighter: is manufactured under licence from Lettmann
Mistek: is manufactured with its own original Italian licence
Nitrox: only on this kayak there is a controversy over the licencing
:twocents: :twocents:

I do not think that this forum is the place to take sides involving the Nitrox, as there are a lot of issues involved which is not our business to get into.
:cheers:

Hi ,

I understand that the newly made model is CS Canoes design..
But I do wonder, as Mark says.. are the other models made under licence? (Fighter/Nitrox/Mistik)

[Martijn]

Reza,

Thanks for clarifying things !
:thumbup:

Martijn

[Alan Vessey]

What about the Dynamic, I have heard they ripped that off to just like the Nitro. This isn't the place for 'digging the dirt' but it is in the paddlers best interests. If manufactuers get what they want then any illegal boats will be taken off them and that is a players concern.

[the deacon]

.................And what about the Story About The Italian Moulded Seat' ?
I had also heard down those murky corridors of gossip that this was the Idea of a certain Italian manufacturer who got the idea from transplanting his slalom seat (from his own manufacturing line) into a canoe polo boat, and registering this idea and then giving out the licence to a certain other manufacturer and never getting fees in exchange......

After all, if the seat had not been the idea of someone on this Side of the Pond, then the name of the seat would not of been known as 'Italian Styled', but with something else instead..... how about 'Mongolian Styled' for example......don't you agree?

But then who am I to decide who is right and who is wrong and who did not pay what to whom and why? And I think that there are many others like I who know Squat about anything.

Hence the abounding Gossip.

As I had said before, I think that we should leave taking sides on certain arguments to the direct People involved as only they (and the eventual Courts of Justice) know the exact truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth about this Affair.

I too, like you, abhor canoe polo design rippers, but unfortunately, as long as there are 'ripped canoe polo pushers' out there, and a corresponding market for their 'junkies', there will always be a nefarious trade involved.
:twocents: :twocents:
:cheers:


What about the Dynamic, I have heard they ripped that off to just like the Nitro. This isn't the place for 'digging the dirt' but it is in the paddlers best interests. If manufactuers get what they want then any illegal boats will be taken off them and that is a players concern.

[Emiliano]

Hi paddlers,

I use a Carbon Kevlar - Vampire "M" from more than one year (both competitions and training 3 days a week) made by CS Canoe and I'm very satysfied about it. The weight is about 9 kg, the material is very strong (no "crashes" but just some not worring scratches). :wavey:

About copying between different factories i think everyone copy from somebody else and noone has the money (and the clear conscience) to make a pubblic accuse in a tribunal!:twocents:

[michielv]

Revenge: is manufactured under licence from Double Dutch


Perhaps I'm wrong here but I was always under the impression that the Revenge boats were built bij P&H?

[Andrej@K&C]

Hi paddlers,

I use a Carbon Kevlar - Vampire "M" from more than one year (both competitions and training 3 days a week) made by CS Canoe and I'm very satysfied about it. The weight is about 9 kg, the material is very strong (no "crashes" but just some not worring scratches). :wavey:

About copying between different factories i think everyone copy from somebody else and noone has the money (and the clear conscience) to make a pubblic accuse in a tribunal!:twocents:

That is interesting, because my company has bought the exclusive license for the Vampire 2001 series for Europe from the Australien designer. When we found out that CS Canoe offers this boat we involved our lawyer and they told us the following:

"We have imported a kayak called Vampire, from a country out of European C., but we are not sure that it is the same kayak of your Vampire 2001.
But we inform you that from 2004 and now we didn't imported more Vampire, because the italian market for this our kayaks is closed"

Now they dont sell Vampires anymore (as we know)...

Let me point out:
1. Duncan Chocran did not sell his Vampires or the license to CS Canoe and Duncan is the only one outside Europe who makes the Vampires.

2. It is in my opinion uncommon for a polo boat manufacturer to import polo boats...and the customers think that they made the boats as you can read above.

3. We have ask Mister Lettmann and he told us that CS Canoe has not the license for the Lettmann kayaks.

4. I understand that we as a manufacturer have a problem with that and most of the customers dont care about licenses a.s.o, thats normal...

Greetings,
Andrej

[the deacon]

It seems now that a Pandora's Box has been opened inadvetently by me on the subject of the licencing and manufacture of canoe polo boats either by CS Canoe or by others.
This seems to be an old painful and serious subject which has been around on this Forum, judging by the replies which are coming in.

On replying, I would like to make it clear from the start that I was not endorsing the manufacture of these products in any way, but was just stating exactly what I was told by the owner and reporting it on this Forum.
I am astonished to read that what I was told by the owner and what Andrej@KC has written do not match up, as I remember that I wrote down correctly what I was told on the phone, and if that information is different, then he must have his own reasons for that.

Other than knowing the owner of CS Canoes from the years we used to slalom race on the local rivers together, I have no personal profit to gain from the advertising or sale of his canoes on this forum.
A lot of Italians use his canoes, but I guess that they barely know the name of the model let alone from where the design originated.

As I have said before, It is unethical to make 'ripped' copies of other peoples endeveours be it for personal use or for profit, and I stand by that statement 100%.
One of the ways that this trade could be stopped is that every National Federation accept only athletes who when they partecipate in their countries Championships use legal licenced canoe polo boats, otherwise face disqualification.

I do not know if this would work, as many athletes from small clubs or from emerging countries do not have the financial means to abide by this (eventual) ruling.
Just look at the software piracy from countries like Korea, China and yes, also from Italy.
And to what good it has not got to.

I remember in the 1980's the famous 'clubman' canoe of Ian Williams was so copied that there were these boats in basically every place where we played.
And apparently, he too could not get the copiers to stop production.
On the other hand, how is a person who goes into a canoe shop, sees a canoe, and buys it, know that that item is a 'copy' or the real McCoy?
How many paddlers have ever heard of names like Lettmann, Pyrhana, D&H, Prijon, etc etc.

What could be the Final Solution for this problem? And is there any chance that National Federations could get involved more actively in helping to resolve it?
If we keep this debate open enough, maybe we could get more people involved at higher levels to make matters count.
:cheers:


That is interesting, because my company has bought the exclusive license for the Vampire 2001 series for Europe from the Australien designer. When we found out that CS Canoe offers this boat we involved our lawyer and they told us the following:

"We have imported a kayak called Vampire, from a country out of European C., but we are not sure that it is the same kayak of your Vampire 2001.
But we inform you that from 2004 and now we didn't imported more Vampire, because the italian market for this our kayaks is closed"

Now they dont sell Vampires anymore (as we know)...

Let me point out:
1. Duncan Chocran did not sell his Vampires or the license to CS Canoe and Duncan is the only one outside Europe who makes the Vampires.

2. It is in my opinion uncommon for a polo boat manufacturer to import polo boats...and the customers think that they made the boats as you can read above.

3. We have ask Mister Lettmann and he told us that CS Canoe has not the license for the Lettmann kayaks.

4. I understand that we as a manufacturer have a problem with that and most of the customers dont care about licenses a.s.o, thats normal...

Greetings,
Andrej

[clyde]

I have no doubt the Decon little or no idea of what I think many first class Italian players already knew about the origins of these boats.

Personally I think if everyone considers the time and effort into the development process then that would be a good start.

When Mega started producing the Mystere (a boat developed for polo from a slalom boat of a similar name by Mark Downey of Rough Stuff in Ireland), it also came with an "Italian Seat". This I modified several times. It clearly has a style similar to the original with many distint and practical (as opposed to cosmetic) differences - to which other manufacturers have followed suit.
This seat is refered to as Mega's version of the "Italian Seat". Now, not knowing the true origin of it other than Italy, I thought it was better to acknowedge this rather than ignor it.

I have always said as far as boat copies are concerned, if there are 20% performance related differences then it could probably be something different. I am realistic I think !
But that doesn't mean to simple put a little shape on the deck is enough. I find that insulting.

I have seen boats in Spain and Italy which are clearly copies of the following:-
Mystere, Revenge (original, International, Nitro), Flight, Xcell, Combat, Vampire, Fighter. I'm sure there are more, but I can't think of them right now.

Some of these proudly display their makers details, and of course they don't tend to respond to questioning about the origins and arrangments they might claim they have made with the originators.

Bungy. Save you money.

As far as a new design from CS Canoe, I really look forward to seeing it. AND, I have an open mind as to what it may look like.

Clyde

[the deacon]

Hi Clyde,
Sorry about the fact that yes, it is now obvious that I had little or no idea of the origin of these canoes.
This is most probably due to the fact that It has been some time that I have been outside the canoe polo scene, 10 years or such and have not seen the evolution of the latest canoes on the market as per different models and such.

Saying that, it brings me to think, is there really any way to 'invent' a new kayak for the game now?
If in my opinion, one considers the bottom half of the kayak follows the line of a slalom boat, and the topside has very little new ideasto work on, it is no wonder that many boats have similiar designs.
But having said that, kudos to that manufacture who can come up with something new to deliver different from the rest of the pack !!!!!

At this point, if I were a manufacturer, I would get out of the picture, as it would be totally mindboggling for me to think up something really new that has not been made before, and to infringe on someone else's licence.

In ending, I too at this point, am very curious to see what CS Canoes has up his sleeve as to his new model.
I do hope for his sake, that he will have the intelligence to come up with something which appears to be totally his own design, otherwise there will be a lot of MUD IN HIS FACE from here to Timbuctoo !!!
:cheers:

I have no doubt the Decon little or no idea of what I think many first class Italian players already knew about the origins of these boats.

Personally I think if everyone considers the time and effort into the development process then that would be a good start.

When Mega started producing the Mystere (a boat developed for polo from a slalom boat of a similar name by Mark Downey of Rough Stuff in Ireland), it also came with an "Italian Seat". This I modified several times. It clearly has a style similar to the original with many distint and practical (as opposed to cosmetic) differences - to which other manufacturers have followed suit.
This seat is refered to as Mega's version of the "Italian Seat". Now, not knowing the true origin of it other than Italy, I thought it was better to acknowedge this rather than ignor it.

I have always said as far as boat copies are concerned, if there are 20% performance related differences then it could probably be something different. I am realistic I think !
But that doesn't mean to simple put a little shape on the deck is enough. I find that insulting.

I have seen boats in Spain and Italy which are clearly copies of the following:-
Mystere, Revenge (original, International, Nitro), Flight, Xcell, Combat, Vampire, Fighter. I'm sure there are more, but I can't think of them right now.

Some of these proudly display their makers details, and of course they don't tend to respond to questioning about the origins and arrangments they might claim they have made with the originators.

Bungy. Save you money.

As far as a new design from CS Canoe, I really look forward to seeing it. AND, I have an open mind as to what it may look like.

Clyde

[A player]

I have used a Cs Fighter that is identical to the Letmann Fighter. I think that is strange that Cs calls the own canoes with the name of the other houses manufacturers (like fighter - vampire or "nitrox")

[Guest]

Hi you seem to know a lot about C S canoes. I have an opportunity to purchase a C S Fighter polo boat for about £500. However I have a few questions. How much do they retail in the UK? Are they BCU legal for competition? What are they like to paddle?

Thank you R

[MarkP]

R would this be the fighter that was for sale on EBay this week I do not believe that the fighter is an approved design

[the deacon]

Hi Mr Guest,
I would have preferred that you came out of your anonimity and signed with your name as you have asked a specific person on this forum for specific information.

Are you by any chance 'The Fugitive' and have been on the run all this time that you cloak yourself in mystery without revealing your true identity, and that is the reason that you cannot sign in as yourself?

I am replying to you in any case, only out of correctness, and with one simple statement.

Any information on the subject you asked for YOU CAN GET DIRECTLY FROM THEIR WEBSITE, and NOT from me.

Period.

Have fun,
:cheers:


Hi you seem to know a lot about C S canoes. I have an opportunity to purchase a C S Fighter polo boat for about £500. However I have a few questions. How much do they retail in the UK? Are they BCU legal for competition? What are they like to paddle?

Thank you R

[MarkP]

R just to clarrify what I said before I do not believe the fighter is currently Approved for BCU competition

[Guest]

No im not a member of the forum and yes it was the fighter on ebay.
Can anyone give me any advice?

Richard

[Robski Aitken]

Interestingly enough, we saw 2 canoes made of Carbon Kevlar in Essen, being used by Italians, that looked VERY similar to the Dynamic from DPP.

They even had the CS Canoe sticker on them!!! The paddlers even said that they got them from CS Canoe.

When asking CS about it, they replied that there was a Hungarian company that was copying the Dynamic, and that if DPP gave them a licence, that this could then prevent the Hungarians selling the Dynamic in Italy. They still haven't been able to tell us the address, phone number or email of this Hungarian company.

It might just be a coicidental series of events, but I find it a bit od. I too am looking forwards to seeing what New Polo boat CS is going to launch in July!!

Rob.

[chimaera]

I don't mean to justify the philosophy of those producers who take advantage immorally of other people's work; but I'd also like to point out the fact that CS is NOT the only manufacturer adopting this kind of procedure to come up with its products. Therefore I think the whole debate should be discussed on a general point of view, focusing on a certain misdeed, and not too much on the people to whom it's attributed

[bkibbel]

Hi Bungy,

have you ever heard of the new Kiwi Medius? Its a brandnew boat made in Kiel. We have tested it in germany and it got good critics. Its made for people between 55 and 80 kg. For heavyer people, we built the kiwi maxiumus (80 - 110 kg) You can take an look at www.kanukiste.de (http://www.kanukiste.de).

Ciao Björn

Hello

Does anyone have any information regarding boats made by C.S. Canoes in Italy?

Models
Build quality etc..

Cheers:wavey:

Bungy