Future of Under21 Class (split from Best U21 thread)

[clyde]

I'm gonna say it even though some people wont want to hear it.



As far as I am concerned the sooner we bury the U21 class the better for our sport !



However - All credit to the players of the U21 Men of Germany and Netherlands from Kilcock - a fantastic final of epic proportion in what much have been one of the most exciting finals ever.



Instead I personally favour an U18 class which would actually develop the whole youth element of our sport which U21 never has and never will promote or cater for.



The U21 class is inherited from the ICF - which is clearly more concerned with the needs of Sprint and Marathon rather than what is particular to the other disciplines.



I know I play for Dragon - who are more of a team than a club, but my home club is Meridian, and we have a fantastic "Youth" membership, who are also well versed in other forms of Canoe/Kayaking.



The efforts of Mark Preddy (Meridian C team) in Britain is probably quite well known over here. He has managed to get a large group of kids moving forward at a fantastic rate of improvement.

I coach one group of them just once or twice a week and it just makes me think while we currently have an U21 class if we as a club allow some of the better players to go to the U21 squad then what will they learn against players who's only advantage is their size ? Nothing.



My reluctance to "send" these players to the GB Squad environment is also to save them getting some kind of Ego Trip out of it. I've seen it happen and it's very counter productive for the players personal development in a team sport.



Even if some of these players never go to GB U21 squad, they will undoubtedly be some of the best players in the world in their time.

If there is an U18 class, then these players will play a more technical game at a younger age which would - I think be better for the sports development and encourage youth development more around the world.



Certainly here on this thread we have heard a lot about a couple of player from Canada – I know many of them pretty well, and although they hunger for the quality and quantity of competition practice we in Europe enjoy so easily, there is no doubt their day as a Nation will come, as they recognise it’s the younger players who are more important to their sports future.



Perhaps the U21 class is already in enough problems with so many requirements at World Championships that it will die due to so few places being able to cater for all the teams. I don’t know, but U18 is the way forward I think.



I await the mountain of hate mail !!!



Clyde

[Monica]

I can hear what you are saying Clyde, and how it would apply to GB, most of Europe, and some other nations. Here in the US though, if it were to become U18 and SR divisions only, I think as a whole nation we could only put forth ONE U18 team. There just aren't enough people THAT YOUNG playing here yet. I know I started in TX with the only U21 team there was at that time in our whole nation when I was 16. A lot of us did actually. And we would no longer be able to play in a U18 division. But as soon as you open up that bracket from U18 to U21, our country is able to come up with multiple teams who are quite competitive with eachother. So it works now for the US, with this sport not having the size you all enjoy in Europe. I can see how a change could be better though if we were to get larger. Maybe sometime in the future? :)

adios!
Monica.

[spike]

i as well muuch prefer the idea of an under 18 div. the idea of kids (16) having to play with adults (21) in insain. there is know way that the best enviroment for kids to learn in is that with adults and everyone in between. if a country has the ability to put together a more are related group it should. exposing people this young and inexpirenced in life to a situations they are not ready for cannot be the best idea. why not alow them to mature and grow along there pears with help from older paddlers. as miuch as the develpoment of skills is needed you must to develop the person, along with that young players just dont have the mussle to compete tho ther full abilitys at that level, why push them to that extreme so quickly.

[degoon]

I agree with Clyde, that to develop youth players, a U18 category is more appropriate than a U21 category. A 20 or 21-year-old is pretty much an adult already. :)

[Eoin]

What about people who are over 18 but have only been playing polo for a short period of time? I am 18 but I know there are 15 year olds and younger who have been playing a lot longer than me, does this mean I don't count because I am over 18 and therefore can't develop any further? I don't think it should be a case of getting rid of the under-21 class because it's good for people like me and i don't think canoe polo can afford to discriminate against anyone. I hear what your saying about the under 18 class though.

[ralfveltman]

Sure it's a good thing if you develop further, but under 18(or 21) teams are meant to give players likely to be playing for the national squad in the future a boost. And players that started when they were, let's say...12 have a much higher chance of getting to a worldclass-level than someone who started at 18. I agree with Clyde that an under 18 class would be more udefull than a under 21 class. But the question is, if there are enough under 18 players around that are that serious with canoepolo.

[Eoin]

Sure it's a good thing if you develop further, but under 18(or 21) teams are meant to give players likely to be playing for the national squad in the future a boost. And players that started when they were, let's say...12 have a much higher chance of getting to a worldclass-level than someone who started at 18. I agree with Clyde that an under 18 class would be more udefull than a under 21 class. But the question is, if there are enough under 18 players around that are that serious with canoepolo.
yeah but my point was similar to yours in that you suggest there might not be too many under 18s who are that serious for there to be an under 18 class. My point is that there aren't that many people who are playing canoe polo at any level. It is still very much a minority sport and I dont think abolishing the under 21 class is a good idea because its just removing an opportunity for a certain set of people to play at a certain level. It would be much better (but probably much less practical) to have an under 18 and an under 21 then everyone would be happy :) (in theory).

[Curly]

I might be wrong, but I don't think the ICF has an under 18 category for us to change to at the moment....

The ICF junior category is under 21.

so if we want to change that it will be very long and difficult process, as many of the other discipliines will not want to change from U21.

Of course we could also discuss different rules for different disciplines, like treating polo as a team sport and allowing for longer competitions for some disciplines, different ID rules and sposnsorship and and and .....

never quite as simple as you think.

also why not let nations decide on their own most suitable Youth, Junior etc catogories to suit their own level of development - and just have the expense of seniors at major championships

oh and while I on , what about veterans?

curly

[Rolf [GKV]]

It is still very much a minority sport and I dont think abolishing the under 21 class is a good idea because its just removing an opportunity for a certain set of people to play at a certain level.
You can also play with your own club at the highest classes but i agree with u that it isnt a good idea to change the u21 class in a u18 class.

But the question is, if there are enough under 18 players around that are that serious with canoepolo.
Well, i think that there are enough players in most european countries to create u18 teams right? I know we have enough players in the nederlands to create a couple of teams and i assume thats the same in other european countries.

Maybe we could have both classes in a few years:) .

[Craig]

Well in Ireland our Under21 team is mainly people under the age of eighteen. The problem is that in a few years we'll all be over the age of eighteen and there will be no where for us to play. I think we should keep both as it widens the sport for others.:thumbup:

[Kris]

Much of the hand wringing about lack of u/18 players is basically because of lack of junior (u/18) development.
Developing these players takes time patience and a lot of energy - but it HAS to be done.

Canoe polo in many countries suffers from being what I would call a "first generation" sport. In many cases the same people are elite players, coaches, and administrators. It is not until some of these elite players have "retired" and are prepared to put something back into the sport that a tier of experienced people are available to do the work required to have a vibrant junior development programme.

However! That should not stop ANYONE from developing u/18 teams.
Schools are a valuable resource, parents are a valuable resource.
In Hawkes Bay NZ where I come from we have huge numbers of 10 - 15 year olds playing. We get them playing young and get parents involved. Parents of 10 year olds stay and watch (so does gran, and uncle), and will often offer to help! At the end a season a team of 10 year olds will often challenge their parents to a game. The parents won't win but they will enjoy themselves and discover that it's not as easy as it looks - this is where your administrators and social players can come from. Run an inter-school competition.

Junior development is not hard - provide the gear, coaches, pool time. Get them young, make it fun- you'll get their parents as an added bonus.

Cheers
Kris

[ralfveltman]

']
Well, i think that there are enough players in most european countries to create u18 teams right? I know we have enough players in the nederlands to create a couple of teams and i assume thats the same in other european countries.I seriously doubt that. You can just grab a few lads, jump in a van ,kick some ass and call yourself the national u18, but for it to really work...There needs to be a lot of work done. Scouting, making arrangements to train together, actually train together on a regular basis, driving to a location in the country just for a training. Do you really think people here are that really that serious?

[scroll]

This might be a bit off topic.

Getting youth players is quite hard because you can only start playing real polo at age of 14 (ok you can start kayaking at age of 10 but most youth find normal kayakking realy boring, and you can play polo-like games but thats not the same)
And most kids have chosen there sports by then, for example some people start playing soccer at 6 or 7,and won't be kayakking anymore.
And doing kayak onder the age of 10 is quite impossibel!!!

Greetings Pieter

[SmallsheepUSA]

My little sister started kayaking at the age of 8. She entered her first marathon race that year (11.7 miles ~ 18.72 km). It's all about the size of the boat. If you get a small paddle and a small boat, then you can start them very young. (the boat would not meet polo specifications due to length, for instance)

I personally knew a 6-year old who kayaked. He's 10 now and paddling a "Guppy" which is a sprint mini boat. The biggest problem is that nobody has boats this small, so it's hard to get them.

[SmallsheepUSA]

At the time that you joined the team, Monica, we were ALL under 18. In fact, we began as a US 'Junior' team, which wa then defined as under 18. After under 21 came around, it totally changed our outlook and pacing. I'm with Clyde, U18 would be much better (I just hope it doesn't happen till after 2006, cause I want to go to worlds). I think that because it's under 21, we don't get new young players and have gotten older.

Junior Hockey in the US has Under 18 as well as under 22 or something. Maybe that's what we ought to try for?

[JW Lester]

Will the new boat specs due out soon allow for the development of better youth boats? Most of the kids (<14yo) I've seen playing look like they're sitting in a bathtub.

[steffers]

i agree whole heartedly about changing to U18. It takes the pressure off players in between the 18-21 age categorie of choosing to play with the sr teams or sticking with their jr teams. I also think that this gives collegiate leagues something more to shoot for....not just thinking that they have to work up to a high level quickley before they become too old to play for U21. If they first practice in a collegiate division all the while working towards the level of the sr's, then i think this will develope much stronger players overall. and yes, the desparity between say a 16 yr old and 20 yr old can be quite drastic especially with males. my last few years as a U21 player made me feel pretty disgusting when i had to play against newly developed young teams that had 11-13 year olds on them!

as for the players who graduates to that 18 year old age categorie and needs to make the jump to the sr team while their fomer spot on the jr team is filled, i believe they will have a firm idea of what to dedicate energy to and to what level. also, this will give more room for circulation of players at a young age. those that may have been second string with an older player still on the team are given a chance earlier on to try out that role as a lead or at least more valueable player.
-steph

[SmallsheepUSA]

Will the new boat specs due out soon allow for the development of better youth boats? Most of the kids (<14yo) I've seen playing look like they're sitting in a bathtub.
For kids under 14, I don't think that international spec really matters. I began at age 10 in Perception's Carolina 12 (a touring kayak). It is basically a scaled down version of larger boats. I think the same thing would be good for small players in polo. An Evolution (Made by Obeco in Canada) is very small, but I think you could make it shorter (in both length and height) and skinnier for even smaller players. The biggest problem is that a kid will outgrow the boat quickly, so having a club boat of small size might be worth it, especially if we build it ourselves (Alan scratches chin and thinks about the small Mayfield kids...)

[Dutchie]

I think that the gap between a U18 and a senior team is too big.
Bye, Erik

[spike]

off topic but the evolution is made by MEGA (clyde) not obeco. though OBECO dose produce some with consent from clyde...... i think.

[Emmi]

Whats wrong with having both? You can develop the U18 players, as well as the U21 players. U21 is a great class, because occasionally when players get too old and are no longer allowed to play U18, somtimes they arent quite up to senior standards, then because of the U21 class they have got another few years to try and extend their skills and bring themselves up to standard. Of course, if you are good enough to be in the snr team, but only 17, then you get to play in the snr team, no point in playing down and hindering your performance. The snr team should be made up of the best players available, no matter what age. Also if you are having international comps with 3 classes (U18, U21, and Snr) then younger players get a lot more experience.

[polo mouse]

I'm agree that the gap between a U18 and a senior team is too big and i think that slalom rules are sometimes u-23 .
I think that polo need u-18 and u-23. I don't know if it's possible at this time because of the cost. And i'm not sure that FIC will developp those categories.
Each year, we don't know if u-21 woman championships is official because there's not enough team because it's too expensive:twocents: !

valérie n°5;)

[Rolf [GKV]]

I seriously doubt that. You can just grab a few lads, jump in a van ,kick some ass and call yourself the national u18, but for it to really work...There needs to be a lot of work done. Scouting, making arrangements to train together, actually train together on a regular basis, driving to a location in the country just for a training. Do you really think people here are that really that serious?

I think/know there are enough young people in the nederlands who wouldn't mind to drive more that 100 kilometer for a daytraining with a select group of other ambiseus poloers.


Getting youth players is quite hard because you can only start playing real polo at age of 14 (ok you can start kayaking at age of 10 but most youth find normal kayakking realy boring, and you can play polo-like games but thats not the same)

We just got a new group of youth of 8 kids of 9/10/11 years old who train once a week, they played there first tournament a month ago and they'll play there second in 2 months, ofcours you do need a more experienced person in a game as a goalie and to give them tips about the game.
But it is possible as long as you have the right material and people who want to train them.

[Aaron Fear-Ross]

I thought I might as well put my two pence in.


I have coached a National U21 side for the last 4 years now and believe that there is a lot of good development that can come from these squads but I do actually agree with Clyde that the age group should be shifted to the U18 limit instead.

I agree with Curly that these junior and youth squads should not be going to the Major Championships. Yes, they should certainly be brought into a central training enviroment where they can test themselves against others of the same age, weight and sex (especially the womans U18 or U21 class) but leave the Major tournaments to the seniors, it gives the juniors something to aspire to, otherwise by the time people are 23 they have already done everything and are burnt out so why bother playing in the senior ranks. I know of a number of U21 players that have been training so hard for season upon season that they permanently injured themselves before they were able to represent in the open category.

What Kris said about development not being hard I think has some truth in it but it's not quite as simple as he made it sound. NZ has a good formula in that the sport has a solid foundation in it's schools but this still requires a lot of commitment from adults in the area. I was lucky in that when I grew up in NZ I had a handful of teachers that gave myself and a lot of others a huge amount of time which kept me interested in the sport from age 11 to now.

Basically, I think youth in this sport is the future and it needs to be addressed at both club and national level. U18 means that all participants are at school level which supports the idea of growing the development within these institutions. I think that there is nothing wrong with giving youth a chance to represent their country as it is a hell of a motivator but that this opportunity should not be given to just anybody that puts there name forward.

A

[Eric]

I belive that there should be both U18 and U21 divisions. I know at US Nationals a couple of years ago, we did both divisons. This was my first major Tournament and I played in U18. I gained a great deal of knowldge that year and now I am playing w/ people who go w/ the U21/Srn teams.


I say we should have both divisons as it will develop young players to compete w/ people their own age. I also think that someone who is 15 years old, should not be playing against 20 year olds, but an 18 year old can face a 20 year old.

[James]

I believe that the world champs should be only open for the senior classes. After seeing the last world champs in Japan one has to ask how representitive a world champs class is if some of the strongest teams from previous years don't even bother attending? Why don't they attend?......cost.

The continental champs are a fine place for under 18 and under 21 teams to go too........and affordible (unless your Americas, which is just too big in size). I agree with Aaron regarding not burning out our future elite too early, after-all an under 18 or 21 team can always train against a senior team to get some good quality games. When juniors do play against senior (bigger) teams, they learn to be more skillfull in their own play because brute strength gets blunted by the seniors.

Here in New Zealand we have a structure as follows for our local competitions:
- School National Champs: Under 15 class, Under 17 Class and an under 19 class. These are all separated into womens and Open classes. We have a qualification system that allows only the top 8-10 schools in each grade to attend the national finals. This is an inter-school system
-National League Champs: this in an inter club league series with a finals tournament held at the end. Grade are as follows: A and B grades separated for women and Open. Often top schools or combined junior teams compete in the B grade. Obviously the occasional junior member makes it into a clubs top team.
- Inter-regional champs: NZ is divided into 4 regions that then compete at : u18, u21, senior and veterans grades. There are separate mens and womens grades. This is a huge success at the junior and youth levels where the atheletes are able to strive for selection in age group teams that are often heavily competed for.
- NZ also now plays Australia regularly at U18 and U21 levels. We see this as sustainable, where-as a world champs in the Northern hemishpere in just too much $$ at that early age....especially as all our players pay for all their own polo expenses, including international play.

[pologuy]

Changing the U21 category to a U18 catogory is a good idea. However, for those who are between the age of 18-21 and who cannot get into the senior squads may lose the insentive to train to get into the senior squads as it will be a huge leap from U18 level to Senior level. Atleast with the U21 squads the players are usually at a reasonable level to start training with the senior squads once they are too old to play with U21, wheres with an U18 squad the players may not be able to train with the senoir squads andm ay lose the insentive to train.
I do agree though that for younger players who want to develop their polo, that an U18 squad should be available. It would be great if countries could get enough players for both an U18 and U21 squad, however this may not be the case in some countries. Then theres funding for two youth squads....

[gerard]

I know for me the jump from u18 to mens squad was to big a step so i gave up for 3 years but i came back to make it on to the National Irish squad again so i would like to see u21 keep going but also keep u18 not as international but as development stage because if you keep the kids interested the sport can only grow.Just like to wish you all a happy new year.:wavey:

[polo mouse]

:) But what dou you think for -23 and -18 officiel championships or national team and for some tournements maybe add -16 for club, local team?

[michielv]

']

I think/know there are enough young people in the nederlands who wouldn't mind to drive more that 100 kilometer for a daytraining with a select group of other ambiseus poloers.


In Holland we've got an Under-18 division instead of Under-21 in our Nationals. Everybody from age 12 (or is it 14? I'm not sure no this one) and up is allowed to take part in the open division.

Other than that, I'm sure the young people you refer to are willing to drive lots of kilometers but you have to keep in mind that it requires also a lot of parents willing to do the same :D

One advantage of an Under-21 division is that you can have a few players with a drivers license (in Holland the legal minimum age for driving is 18) so they can actually transport themselves to and from training and tournaments.

Anyway, there's a huge difference between international divsions (such as World Championships) and national divisions. I'd prefer every nation to have its own divisions and have senior divisons only in international championships.

Off-topic: SmallsheepUSA, the Evolution is a Mega polokayak co-designed by Clyde, licensed (I presume) by Obeco. :D

:twocents: