Playing the ball across the deck - Several Questions

[JW Lester]

Situation.

The ball is on the left side of player A. Player B is to the right of player A.

Player B attempts to play the ball across the deck of Player A (outside of arms reach in a normal paddling position).

This is difficult to referee because there are so many possible fouls and so many things that can happen.

Situation 1

If Player A is moving forward, and Player B's paddle touches the deck of Player A, slowing him down, then it is Illegal Holding. I've only rarely seen this called, but it happens all the time. Player B seems to be given the benefit of doubt in this case most of the time. Perhaps this should be called more strictly? Does the impeding of player A have to be significant, or do you assume that any contact will impede the player A's progress?

Situation 2

If Player A reaches for the ball with his hand, then it could be Illegal Use of the Paddle - but how do you judge this? The rules state "arms reach of the opponent" in general but the rule also makes a specific exception in the case that the ball is being played across the deck of a boat that it is "arms reach of the opponent in a normal paddling position" Therefore if Player A leans forward to pick up a ball out of reach in a "normal" paddling position, is about to pick it up (lets say Player A's hand is 10 cm from the ball) and Player B scoops it away with his paddle, how is this to be called. It seems to me that it could be a paddle foul, but then again, a player could just "draw" the foul by putting his hand near the ball even if he can't actually reach it. So in this case it seems that the referee should judge whether or not Player A has real chance to pick the ball up - if not then no foul, but if yes, than it is a foul. Correct????

Situation 3a
Player B puts his paddle near the ball and Player A brings his paddle down on top of Player B's and then pushes the ball away.

vs.
Situation 3b
Player A has his paddle under the ball. Player B brings his paddle down onto player A's paddle, then scoops the ball over to himself.

vs.
Situation 3c
Player B is attempting to put his paddle across player A's deck to take the ball. Player A reaches forward to take a stroke forward and knocks Player B's paddle away.

vs 3d, 3e, 3f when much clashing of paddles across the deck occurs.

Actually, with all the water flying around and when the referees are usually fairly far from the action, it can be hard to tell exactly what the heck happened.

So to the experts: what are some general guidelines to use when either playing or refereeing in these types of cases (3a-f)?

Sorry to put so many questions in one thread :stupid:, but they're all sort of related...

Thanks,
John

:cool: ---> :lepr:

[sapoconcho]

I don´t know but if the ball is on the left of player A and player B is on the right of player A I think that player B can´t get the ball using the paddle without foul.. :confused:

[hoody]

There is much talking and debating this subject in the Scottish league, espesially div1 as the games are played at a quick pace.
In the first tournament arguments arose over the legallity of putting the paddle over the boat. This resulted in 2 players being sent off and one going off in protest ?
The problem "and iam not having a go at any level of ref" is that it is down to the person refing the game and what he/she can see from the sideline. There are to many people trying to ref the game from the water " i am one of these people" and it is frustrating to have the ball taken from you with a paddle over the deck when it is in reaching distance and the ref cannot see, so people start shouting out that it was a foul.
As a ref myself any person taking the ball over the the deck within reaching distance of the ball is a foul, as for moving this is deamed to be in possesion of the ball and so a foul is again commited,as long as the ball is within the reaching distance.many player scoop the ball over the front nose of the boat and for about 600-700mm along the nose to the cockpit this is a fair challange and no foul is given. as for the person touching the boat with paddle or body across the deck or tail hindering progress, it is also a foul try to give advantage to the player in possesion if the fastbreak is on or a goal is about to be scored.
The paddle over the boat and clashing paddles 3a,3b is where i would give as obstuction or illegal use of the paddle, 3c is a foul against player a, he cannot chop his paddles into player bs paddles stopping him from getting the ball. but again this must not be within reaching distance of the ball :bang:it is all very confusing, but in normal paddling you always get a knocking of paddles together.
The rest I think comes down to personal choices the most important thing is if you think a foul has been commited blow your whistle stop the game, take a few seconds to get the foul right in your head then show your decision and stick to it. You may take flack but that is all part of refereeing hopefully this may help, and i have the correct answers to the questions?

[the deacon]

Originally posted by hoody
There is much talking and debating this subject in the Scottish league, espesially div1 as the games are played at a quick pace.
In the first tournament arguments arose over the legallity of putting the paddle over the boat. This resulted in 2 players being sent off and one going off in protest ?
The problem "and iam not having a go at any level of ref" is that it is down to the person refing the game and what he/she can see from the sideline. There are to many people trying to ref the game from the water " i am one of these people" and it is frustrating to have the ball taken from you with a paddle over the deck when it is in reaching distance and the ref cannot see, so people start shouting out that it was a foul.
As a ref myself any person taking the ball over the the deck within reaching distance of the ball is a foul, as for moving this is deamed to be in possesion of the ball and so a foul is again commited,as long as the ball is within the reaching distance.many player scoop the ball over the front nose of the boat and for about 600-700mm along the nose to the cockpit this is a fair challange and no foul is given. as for the person touching the boat with paddle or body across the deck or tail hindering progress, it is also a foul try to give advantage to the player in possesion if the fastbreak is on or a goal is about to be scored.
The paddle over the boat and clashing paddles 3a,3b is where i would give as obstuction or illegal use of the paddle, 3c is a foul against player a, he cannot chop his paddles into player bs paddles stopping him from getting the ball. but again this must not be within reaching distance of the ball :bang:it is all very confusing, but in normal paddling you always get a knocking of paddles together.
The rest I think comes down to personal choices the most important thing is if you think a foul has been commited blow your whistle stop the game, take a few seconds to get the foul right in your head then show your decision and stick to it. You may take flack but that is all part of refereeing hopefully this may help, and i have the correct answers to the questions?

Would it not be easier on the rules and their interpretation if any paddle activity over the (player with the ball on the far side of his canoe) boat was deemed illegal? After all the pushing tackle was created to speed up the game and to level the odds when the player was creating a "blind side" for the attacking opponent.
The only "over the boat" use of the paddle could be used when the zone in question could be limited to about 10 cm from the ends of the canoes, where paddles would not cause any harm to the defending/attacking player.
These limitations could be seen by either of the referees on both side of the pitch, without any margin of error.

[Curly]

I'm at work so a brief answer is all I have time for....

as to the 3s, you cannot play a persons paddle with yours, so they are all fouls (and pretty easy to call)

All these situations are on the ball and therefore the leading ref should have no real trouble seeing them. the offence is HOLDING or ILLEGAL USE OF PADDLE (ie is it dangerous)

[hoody]

I am in agreement with the deacon,there should be a ban on the paddle over the boat .But if you were to bring the 10cm rule in to play then there may be more problems trying to ref the game !!.
The game should be fast flowing and this might slow the game down, every paddle over the boat blow the whistle, foul, get the ball back, play the foul etc. Its a bit of a grey area at the moment ? You are correct Curly on the calls but how many refs are calling these I have seen lots of these fouls and they are waved away but the refs, that is unless they are very dangerous then they are called.

[sapoconcho]

I don´t see the problem... :confused: are we playing with different rules?
When we ref all movement with the paddle over the deck trying to get the ball is foul.Only in the nose of the boat you can allow to try to get the ball.
I also don´t see why it will slow the game,if you try to get the ball you will get a foul,if you try again you´ll get a card.And if the other player tries to slow the game you can push him,or if he slows too much he will lose the ball by 5 seconds, or not?

[SeanT]

The only impt part of the rules with respect to paddles over the boat are these surely (ignoring playing of paddle etc which is clearly illegal)

Playing, or attempting to play, the ball with a paddle when the ball is within arms reach of an opponent, and that opponent is attempting to play the ball with their hand.
Attempting to play the ball with a paddle across the bow of an opponent’ s kayak, within arms reach of the opponent in a normal paddling position.

To call anything else is not reffing to ICF, so to say all mov't of the paddle over the deck while attempting for the ball is illegal is clearly incorrect.

With respect to the suggestion that the rules be changed to make it illegal for ease of reffing I wouldn't be a fan. These aspects of the rules as I see them are for safety. If the balls out of arms reach or if the other player isn't attempting for the ball with their hand where's the danger? Sure it calls for judgement by the players and the refs, but so does most of the rest of the game. I reckon it's a great sight and skill to see someone pilfer the ball in a legal=safe manner from the other side of an opponents boat.

[Dave]

Are we only talkin about playing the ball with a paddle across a boat when the ball IS in arms reach? or are we talking about playing the ball across the boat at all times??

If we are talking only about within arms reach then there is no question, it is a foul. but if we are also including when the ball is out of arms reach then we have a problem.

Being able to play the ball across a deck when it is out of both players arm reach is just like pushing or stealing the ball with your hands, it speeds up the game, and gives both players an equal chance to do something with the ball.

For example, if the ball is floating out to a corner or sideline throw, and a player from the team which this will help puts their boat between you and the ball, but you can still reach the ball with your paddle then why should you not be allowed to scoop up the ball and "keep the ball alive" ???

Just my
:twocents:

Dave

[the deacon]

Originally posted by hoody
I am in agreement with the deacon,there should be a ban on the paddle over the boat .But if you were to bring the 10cm rule in to play then there may be more problems trying to ref the game !!.
The game should be fast flowing and this might slow the game down, every paddle over the boat blow the whistle, foul, get the ball back, play the foul etc. Its a bit of a grey area at the moment ? You are correct Curly on the calls but how many refs are calling these I have seen lots of these fouls and they are waved away but the refs, that is unless they are very dangerous then they are called.

Hoody,
I referred to the 10 cm limit over the bow and stern ends to clear any confusion of if the paddle is just to front/stern of the boat.
When we played with "Italian Rules" we used this rule.
And there was no space for ambiguity from either the player or referee's point of view. And the game was very fast and furious. :guns:
The only difference was that we did not have the push tackle, which was a pity.
:cheers:
:twocents: