Hindering a roll?

[troy]

How much space does a player have to be given while trying to roll up if they still have the ball?

How close can an opponent sit beside them getting ready to push them again?

Personally, I think there are two different situations:
1. the capsized player doesn't have the ball
2. the capsized player still has the ball in hand

The relevant rule is "Unsprting Behaviour" (and I'm considering this at the most elite level of play):

In situation 1, clearly it would be unsporting to hinder a player from rolling if they don't have the ball
- and so any opponent should move their kayak clear of the capsized player.

But in situation 2, when they still have the ball in hand, how close should you be allowed to sit alongside, waiting to steal the ball as they roll up?

I tend to think that, if you've still got the ball while upside-down, the ball is there to be played for:
- if there was space to fall over, there was space to come straight back up
... if you chose the wrong side and tried to roll up under an opponent's kayak, bad luck for picking the wrong side
... if you take too long and the gap closes up, bad luck
... if you want to be given more space to roll, bad luck, you're just going to have to relinquish the ball by letting go of it or pushing it out beside the nose or tail of your boat (it won't sit underwater for long if you're not holding it and trying to roll!) - as soon as the ball pops up, play will move on, the waters will clear and you can roll up at your leisure - just make sure you let go of the ball to give yourself enough time to roll before losing your breath!

Even though I sometimes get caught underwater, because I've been too slow to roll or rolled the wrong way first time, and had to give up trying to roll with the ball, I think that's the fair way to play the rule and I can only be annoyed at myself for not being as quick as I used to be!

It all comes down to what is considered "hindering", and to what extent it is viewed in relation to the object and spirit of the game!

What do you think?

[mrplaybus]

In answer to part of your questions, I always understood that you can carry on hand tackling when the player's head and shoulders are out the water.
laters
a :viking:

[michielv]

Originally posted by troy
<snips>
... if you want to be given more space to roll, bad luck, you're just going to have to relinquish the ball by letting go of it or pushing it out beside the nose or tail of your boat (it won't sit underwater for long if you're not holding it and trying to roll!) - as soon as the ball pops up, play will move on, the waters will clear and you can roll up at your leisure - just make sure you let go of the ball to give yourself enough time to roll before losing your breath!



It is quite clear: when one holds the ball even when under water the 5 seconds rule still counts. I.e. if you still hold the ball after 5 seconds, you can just as well let go of it because you lost it anyway.

Furthermore I think one cannot try to roll on the wrong side and end up under an opponents's kayak because they have to give you room to roll (otherwhise they would hinder you). There is no way to know in advance which way a tackled player will come up so all players in the area have to make room for you coming up.

Once both shoulders and the head are out of the water the player can be tackled again.

[SeanT]

I can't recall ever attempting/managing to roll with the ball but not being able to or hindered in any significant way, by a boat being immediately alongside. I don't know about anyone else but I ain't clever enough to come up with my body sticking out sideways. The nature a "roll" means the boat does just that, rotating as you come up and it takes sod all extra space than the width of the boat.

It is certainly relatively easy to still roll up with a boat hard alongside and if the dude can't do it thats their problem. If they can't then let go of the ball, game moves on, plenty of space to roll/swim and a skill to work on later.

IMO any kayak directly alongside an upsidedown player is not hindering unless there is contact of one boat over/under the other (this doesn't include gentle bumping as they attempt to come alongside).

Again IMO by far the most common reason a player wouldn't come up is due to a poor roll. The number of times you can get a boat hard up against both sides in the 5 seconds is insignificant and a good roll will still get you up to face more music...