Division 1

[wayne]

I would say what did people think of the latest division 1 format, but there were so few people there I wonder if there's anyone to reply. Cutting the numbers of teams has reduced what was usually a poor atmosphere to no atmosphere at all. This was not aided by one of the teams not turning up. Ten minute halves were good, but were played in total silence and of course longer halves favour the stronger teams, making freak results less likely. 300 miles round driving for three games added to the depression. It's difficult to see where the competition is going to come from, with FOA/GBA/Ireland A outclassing everyone by a country mile. The only game where there was any doubt as to the outcome was between the bottom two teams, and I suspect that will be the theme for the whole season. What does everyone else think of the new format?

Wayne :matrix:

[Alan Vessey]

The reason it went down to 8 teams is because 2 teams (Humbersiders and Bere Forest) dropped out. This is a great shame, but is typical of the way I see polo going at the top.
What should we do promote 3rd/4th from div.2? Maybe 20-0 scores could be on the cards which isn't on.

If we stayed at 10 teams then 10 minute halves couldn't happen unless a big increase in pool time. It's a must that we play 10 minute halves, the old way was so dated. If you work out the time factor for your three games it's 60 mins, the old way was 48 or 60 (4 or 5 games).

Woodmill not attending was a problem fair enough and yes the atmosphere was and will be crap.

As for FOA yes they are good and Meridian will challenge them possibly. Maybe Viking turn things around. But all these players train alot, so you will just have to do more if you want to stop them.

What do you suggest?

For me I'd move the league to the summer and outside, you could have more games. That wouldn't change the big standard gap between the 8 teams though.

[wayne]

God I had no idea how depressing that email looked when I posted it! We actually enjoyed the evening for once - probably because we (surprisingly) won our last game and did relatively ok against viking (very relatively!). The ten minute halves really were good, and I think even two years ago the exclusivity of eight teams would have served the sport really well - there was you/viking/bere forest/meridian all giving each other a game - I agree that it really only looks like Meridian are going to give FOA a game. I'm just wondering if reducing the numbers to eight was the right response to Bere Forest and Humbersiders giving up. Sure, if you'd promoted more teams up there would have been some thrashings, but there were any way (mainly to us), and promotion could have given a bit of inspiration to some div II teams (and we could have scored some goals). The constant recirculation of the top players between clubs serves their purpose very well, and keeps their trophy cupboard full, but it stifles the sport at a grass roots level. What next year? Six teams, composed entirely of international players? you say in your post that we need to train more, but looking at the teams that have succeded in Div I, are you sure we wouldn't be better off drafting in a top player or two from another failing club? (as if they'd be that stupid!). I know what the real answer is, and that's to get involved as Clyde keeps suggesting on his web page - maybe when the Avon Creche closes and the babies are all grown up.

Cheers - thanks for running div I - I'm only bouncing ideas around here rather than working.

Take it easy,

Paul

[wayne]

Yup, summer and outside would be better. Pool time is a rip off.

Paul

[Ian Main]

Very difficult and emotive subject matter and one which will always have a variety of opinions on the way forward.

From a Scottish perspective, the sport is absolutely without a shadow of a doubt, in decline. In the 17 years I have been involved, our Scottish league structure has contracted from a seven league to an under-supported 2 league set-up, which is currently filled with a predominately aged competitor base (average age must be approx. 30-35 years old I would guess).

With this in mind I do feel strongly that the debate over 'the way forward' has to involve all participants taking a more active involvement to support the grass roots of the sport. I watch with interest in the drive and enthusiasm shown by the FOA coaches to continually bring on new blood into the game and feel they lead the way in the sport. Unless we all bring in fresh blood the sport will die!

I realise this is a bit of a detachment from the current thread, but I feel the league structure as a whole lacks excitement. Three years ago four Scottish teams made the effort to compete in your leagues, now Selkirk and Woodmill (if they get enough forewarning of when the tournaments are to be played to raise a team) are the only teams interested, and to be honest may struggle to enthuse themselves to continue this commitment.

:barbell: Part of the problem is staleness. This may be controversial, but I feel you have devalued division one immensely this season by falling to 8 teams. If we are trying to develop the sport this league should be the ‘flagship’ league and should contain ten teams, no question. The league(s) below should all supply the teams (on merit) to fill the spaces above and any contraction should be at the bottom league level. The current set-up seems to be somewhat elitist and self-preserving. We would love the chance to get to div 1, and take on board Alan's comment about 20-0 thrashings, and requiring to train, but if you compare the English Premiership for example - small provincial clubs such as Wolves try hard to get there to take their chance with the 'big boys' and struggle to compete once there, but in the long run their skill levels will improve (perhaps in defence mostly) and the sport as a whole stays stronger. I feel you are running the risk of disheartening div 2 teams. On the flipside it does come down to temperament and I accept that 20-0 thrashings may also dishearten teams, but personally I entered the British League at div 4 with the long term goal of reaching div 1 to taste the level of polo there - this will become harder and harder if contractions take place at that level.

Just my thoughts!

Excuse my ignorance, but we have never been posted a copy of this year’s yearbook and I do not know how you intend to handle relegation/demotions - I would be extremely interested if someone could post the plans here. Thanks.

[Ajdavis5]

Who said you need to train to survive in div 1 :sleep:

[wayne]

Exactly Andy, I've never trained, and look how good I am. (very good if you don't know me, bordering on awesome).

Ian, I have the same worries that you do about chopping down the league. The real answer is indeed to follow FOAs lead (and Viking and everyone else, including Avon and Bere Forest that are doing a lot to encourage new people into the sport). I suspect it's just a bad year for Div 1, although I don't accept that the decline is relentless. A year ago when we were last in Div 1, the standard seemed very high indeed, but a few teams have dropped out or lost players, so the standard is bound to drop for a while.

Alan - you mention outdoors - what happened to a permanent pitch at Nottingham - reasonably central, great changing facilities, good town for a night out after (so long as you don't mind being shot) and lots of interested canoeists milling around to add a (tiny) bit of atmosphere?

Cheers,

Paul :egypt:

[Simo]

I agree with Wayne(???) & Alan, that playing out doors during the summer months would be better for the game as a whole since the money currently wasted on pool hire can be put back into developing free to use polo sites around the country.

Also it would give us a wider audiance to promote the game too.

I would propose that instead of having the meaningless Liverpool & Hull tournaments these are turned into National League tournaments. These venues would be added too so that tournaments are held around the country.

I know this clashes with some teams plans on traveling to international tournaments but tough, the national league structure and promotion of the sport is more important than a few friendly tournaments.

Also with new swimming pools being built around the country mainly being 50m (too expensive) or 25m (too small) within the next couple of years we are going to be without sufficient pools to play in anyway.

Thats my two pence worth. I will now go back into my box.

Cheers

Simo

[hoody]

Simo I have to disagree with your comments about Liverpool and Hull being meaningless tournaments. First you bring together not just top quality teams but all forms of teams, ladies, juniors etc.

You cannot just lope these coming togerther of canoe polo players and families into the waste bin, there are a great many people that bust there ass to bring these tournaments to the masses and to fill there club coughers with much needed money. :twocents:
Many people enjoy travelling from around britain, Ireland and europe to play in such compatition long may these tournaments last.

Also teams get a good night out !!!!!!!
These are very rare !!!!!!!!!

[Alan Vessey]

Maybe you keep the Hull and Liverpool tournament but use the first class as a div.1 league tournament and keep the 2nd,3rd, youth classes etc as they currently stand. This way everyone still goes (and more) and the clubs still can have their tournaments and make money.

The idea of Div.1 going back to 8 teams isn't perfect but in order to play 10 minute halves you would need more tournaments and more pool time, which in turn costs more per team and more weekends.

And the reason it is becoming more eliteist is because only 3 teams really train to better themselves, try and win things, make the GB teams, surely thats what the top end of the sport is supposed to be about. Or are they wrong for wanting this?

Yes Andy we know you never trained the last few years but it's good to see your expierence is paying off in Div 4!!

[Ian Main]

I don't think that wanting to improve and to be the best you can be is wrong by any strech of the imagination Alan.

What I do feel strongly about is that the sport appears to be sick at the minute. If the admition that only three teams in the whole of Britain are committed to betterment this is surely the time to admit our much loved sport needs to widen its sights otherwise it will die! Or perhaps to realise it is not quite as important to some people?

If the other five teams in div 1 decide to pack it all in what then? Would the league continue to contract until the three committed teams play each other every week?

This is a difficult issue and is very like our SPL football league in Scotland in that every season Celtic and Rangers dominate and the rest feed from the crumbs of their plates so to speak. Its not pretty and I don't know what the magic formula is because speaking from experience you can never please everyone reagrdless of how hard you try to organise these things for people.

I would be interested in hearing how the season goes as a whole to see if it is a success generally.

[Alan Vessey]

Of course it won't go down to three teams. One of the biggest problems is the lack of people coming though the ranks (as you mentioned), the 'clubs' that took part weren't so much clubs as group of players so no real depth and biggest of all is the lack of work that people have put back into the sport. Out of all the players that have played over the years probably about 5% have done something.

[Ian Main]

Agreed Alan, and probably succintly sums up where the point I am making about the likes of FOA and other clubs mentioned here who do work hard for the sport.

How can we change peoples attitude.

If we could persuade even another 20% of the participants to get involved just imagine the progress that could be made. But as we find in Scotland people are very quick to criticise efforts made but very slow to offer their help to do something constructive to chage whatever is causing their gripes! Perhaps human nature, perhaps we should introduce some kind of rule similar to the rule requiring a qualified ref from each team to force every team to provide someone for the polo committee?

[mrplaybus]

Alan
the idea of using the Liverpool, Hull Tournaments for div 1 sounds great. The only problem I can see is that if a national team wants to use it for a warm up/ training practice for it's squad as well this could create a few complications. Just a thought.

laters
a

[Ian Main]

If a venue such as Liverpool were to be used why not organise another date there rather than mess around with someone else’s event?

Four pitches available at Liverpool would allow four divisions to compete, not just div one, over the course of a weekend. This potentially would allow four current league organisers and other volunteers to 'pool' their resources.

Another snagging point may be that presently teams are given some flexibility to choose to miss certain tournaments. If their season is concentrated over a weekend, they could have other commitments which may cause difficulties.

Another intangible is that some paddlers may not like competing outdoors and may not attend/leave the sport.

If this proposal were to take place what would happen during the Winter months, which are traditionally the domestic season in the UK? Do you not feel that paddlers would be looking to compete during this period and a league would still be required due to demand (and required to be indoors to avoid hypothermia!)

Worth exploring the options though because from a purely selfish point of view the cost of competing down south costs us an arm and a leg in travel costs and if we reduced the amount of times required to travel this would help.

[Simo]

I would like to see the division 1 (and other divisions) season played over maybe three tournaments during the summer where each of the eight teams plays each other once at each tournament.

This would give the tournament a 'winner' and the aggregate results would lead to a national champion.

This would be 28 games which could be fitted in on one pitch over two days (prefer to use two pitches then things can be more relaxed when changing over / warming up etc).

This format could be used for other leagues as well so that the whole national league is played outdoors.

Fees would still charged to the teams, which could be divided up between the club that organises the event eg FOA in the case of Liverpool, and the polo committee for re-investment in the sport.

With the money saved from the pool hire could be used to construct more outdoor venues around the country for staging tournaments and boosting the sports public image.

Winter polo can then be based around local/regional/invitation leagues at indoor venues.

As for people not being able to attend, at present the national league is based over four evenings and yet teams cant always get everyone their. This will always be a problem what ever you do.

As for not liking playing out doors, I personally am not a great fan but I think you would get more new blood into the sport because of the higher profile. Also there would no doubt still be indoor events.

[clyde]

I agree with Alan - have the National League outside. Afterall, if it's not frozen, it can't be that cold !

The greater promotion we can make at every opportunity of our sport the moe chance we have of getting more players.
Hiding away in swimming pools with little or no chance of spectators is not going to help find future players of the future.

As for the great things FOA are doing, well, I only ask why they are reducing their internal promotional path by getting outsiders to play for their top team ?

The second Div 1 was kind of interesting for all the reasons already mentioned, and the refing was as usual, still pretty shoddy.
I'll take my hat off to Woodmill/Selkirk/Scotish team - whatever name they are playing as. They are probably the best team at playing to the limitations of the ref to their own advantage, and given that fact, they should stop calling for the foul that they were doing 10 seconds earlier to their opponents.
Then I think, as old as they may be (combined age), they might actually crush some egos.

What to do in the winter - as already mentioned - the local Leagues.

Clyde

[hoody]

I agree with you Clyde on bringing polo to the masses any sort of coverage to our minnority sport is good. As i have attended Liverpool and many more Internationals it is good to hear people asking "what the hell is going on here"? as they walk past or stop to stare. As i said in my previous mail I was just trying to defend the tournaments that i think help the sport. Reading the thoughts on other peoples mails there are a lot of good ideas bouncing around. To hold not just div 1 but all of the divisions on one weekend would personally help to cut our travel costs, but that would mean to hold a whole new tournament at Liverpool, Hull or anywhere else that has good crowd level, do you think that is worth doing? as i would still like to see there being a International in the summer. I dont mind the cold weather it is never hot in Scotland anyway!!!.

[Ian Main]

Doesn't seem to be many dissenting views against playing in the Summer outside, and Clyde makes a very valid point on the opportunities which exist to expose ourselves (steady!) to the public by coming out of the pools.

What are the chances of any of these ideas taking place? Perhaps this years AGM should see the contributors and interested parties coming forward with the suggestions and volunteering to set it up? I still think we all owe the sport a little and that each team should have a representative on one of the committees or pay a premium to play in their leagues.

Not sure about Clyde's almost racist comment about the Scottish/Woodmill/Selkirk teams being one in the same though - quite controversial given the fact that they are three entirely separate entities! But I suppose I can let him off given the fact that his travels seem to be worldwide but he doesn't make the trip over Hadrian's Wall very often!

Seriously this looks like a winner on multiple counts and Selkirk would be up for playing div 2 under a similar setup as that suggested.

[Paddy W]

Do what you like with Div 1 , but leave the National leagues as it is! If it works don't try fixing it!

The current set up works fine:- (i.e. National Leagues indoors during the winter months and lots of summer tournaments outdoors at home and abroad).

OK - It cost a fair amont to play in the leagues (about £15-20 per person per tournament excluding travelling costs). BCU membership = £32.50 , Tournament fees per team = £40 (or £50 in Div 1) & admin fee = £30.

By moving outdoors are the cost going to be reduced? You still pay £40- £50 entry fee to Hull/Liverpool.

What are teams going to do during the winter months?
Local leagues - None currently runs in London & SE region.

There is also more committment required to go for two entire weekends than 4 Saturday evenings.

I think if you did a poll of ALL TEAMS then I would think that most people like the Natoinal Leagues to run indoors during the winter months, leaving teams free to enter other tournaments during the summer.

[Ian Main]

I'm not sure if the teams all subscribe to this forum Paddy but it might be a good idea that you have come up with to post a poll (un scientific as it may be) on here to guage the interest/thoughts?

Some suggestions could be made and with the ones already suggested here we could take a vote on the way forward.

[Dan]

"each team should have a representative on one of the committees or pay a premium to play in their leagues."


I think this is a great idea. I reallise there arn't enough committee positions to go round but other things like running local/national leauges, organising tournaments or having an active youth team could count, anything that puts something back into the sport. Perhaps make it only Div3 and above - to avoid putting off new teams.

What do people think?

[bob]

As for the great things FOA are doing, well, I only ask why they are reducing their internal promotional path by getting outsiders to play for their top team ?

First of all no body from foa has said on the forum they are doing great things in the world of polo.

if some one has seen something that looks ok then fine we try our best.

as for our internal promotion path it is still on course. that said course is one that the coaches alone determine.

as for outsiders we dont have any! what we do have is a strong liverpool bred team that include six players from liverpool and two friend's of the players who have talent that they can put to use in a team of their own ilk.

I only ask : are you upset you were'nt :cheers:

[Ian Main]

Bob,

It was me who commented on the good things your club has done and is doing, and to be fair I do not have a detailed knowledge of your activities - it is observing the enthuasiasm you and your club members have and the numbers who appear to be actively involved during the time we spend i your company at Liverpool which has impressed me.

I suspect, as you, that the comments made about using outsiders could be down to sour grapes.

Keep up the good work!

[NigelPiggott]

How depressing! I've just read through the thread and you make it sound like polo is dead and buried.
Please don't talk of scrapping tournements such as Liverpool, these tournaments are the stage for the newer teams to test themselves.
As for falling numbers we do not do enough from within to promote the sport, we are all guilty here, but I appreciate that for most of us it not that we are apathetic but just that we have other various comm :headbang: itments.
With the imminent departure of some of the polo committee what is needed is some energetic new blood, any takers?
Nigel