Patents and Copies...

[Orlando Silva]

Hi!!

No one likes to have is creations being built by others, without license but:

Is it illegal or is it morally incorrect?

To have a patent of your creation (ex: polo boat) you need to comply with these Patents Rules:

http://www.patent.gov.uk/patent/legal/rules.pdf

Do they?? :confused:

We all know this is expensive and does not assure that in some years others can copy the boat. A patent for a life time is a fortune.
Not even NELO , one of the biggest and better sprint/marathon boats in the world (11 gold medals in Sevilha 2002), have patents of is boats because it’s not monetary available.

If I’m not committing a crime while constructing (no thank you) or buying a copied boat why can’t I do it if they are cheaper and sometimes stronger than the original??

Cheers

[Martijn]

The reason would be, that the profit goes to the wrong person...
at first none of your concern.. but the long-term effect could be bad..
If people who spend lot's of time and money in making NEW designs don't get any money from the sold boats.. they will need to find another job, leaving no time to make new designs..
In that way, in ten years we will still paddle the same boats as we do now..
Is that bad? don't know.. can't see the future..
But I'm very happy we don't paddle in the same boats as we paddled 10 years ago over here..

So I'll stick to buying a boat from the designer or his manufacturer.. and keep sponsering them making new designs...

:worship:

Martijn

[p.oleary]

Martijn

I know plenty of ten year old boats that are in much better shape than yours. If you are supporting any patent it is that of Duct tape.

Seriously as a sport develops suppliers will only stay with it if they can make money from it and that is fair. Rip offs will limit our options in the future

Patrick

[Orlando Silva]

Sorry but I don’t agree!

There are many ways (marketing and so on) to led people to buy boats (originals or not).

Have you ever drink PEPSI , VIRGIN COLA , Dr. PEPPER or any of the hundreds of Cola’s in the world or you keep sponsoring COCA-COLA (The original)??

Cheers

[p.oleary]

I have no problem with someone coming out with a boat with the same basic design (afterall that is inevitable given the restraint of the games rules) or even borrowing individual concepts from other boats to improve your design but that is different from producing an identical boat by taking someone elses design. You can't compare this to cola because the colas produced are not the same they don't rip off the magic formula (because they don't have it) they produce similar products which they market in their own right but if I buy virgin colca I do't think it is the same as coke. If I buy a rip off set of paddles or boat they are the same (given similar construction)



Patrick

[Cor]

I'm not an expert, but I think it's not about patents when you copy a boat. I think every disign is protected by law, like copy right on a book, CD's or fancy cloths. It's also illegal to write a "Harry Potter" book and just change some minor details or producing shirts called O'neilly or La costa (whit an alligator) or things like that.

Cor

[mark19843]

My understanding, which may be wrong is that:

Patents are only available for 'innovative' products. Since polo boats are constrained by the rules they cannot be 'that different' and therefore there is little room for innovation.

Copyright is for littory works and publications (inc music/video).

The only thing i can see that might apply are design rights to registered designs. I believe that these only stay with the original designer and so whilst you would break this rule by copying a revenge (whose designer still builds the boats) you wouldn't be if you copied a boat whose designer had sold the moulds/design on to a 3rd party.

With the boast rules being so restrictive how much of a design do you have to change for it to be a 'new design'?

[Unregistered]

Fact is that the Italian manufacturer of canoe polo boats CS Canoe, from Sacile, Italy, has made an illegal mould of the UK Pretender, Nitro X, which most of the Italian club teams are buying.
This is stated on the Pretender home page in the section "Hall of Shame".
The main reason seems, that the price is way way lower than the original, but they had an agreement to manufacture Pretender canoes on licence and pay royalties to the English manufacter.
Rumour is, on the other hand, that CS Canoe refueses to pay royalties to Pretender, because they allegedly have had their seat design swiped and copied by Pretender, who does not give CS Canoe any money back for their design!!
Tit for tat or what?

[PeQu]

Are you talking about P&H's Revenge Nitro or that plastic boat? :stupid:

[Unregistered]

that plastic boat

[the deacon]

and the composite boat :stupid:

[Shaq]

sorry, am i missing something, is there a company making polo boats called Pretender??

[PeQu]

I think it's Italian company Nova?

[Paul Costerus]

ok, there are a few ways to protect your design of being copied by others...

At first you could patent your design of couse BUT there are a few buts...
1) it is verry expensive to patent your design in more than one country

2)If you are a dutch boad designer it costs about 5000 Euro's to protect (patent) your design in holland (when you do this no one in holland may copy your design and no one in the world may sell a copy of your design in holland, BUT they may copy your design and sell it in (for example) england.
If you don't want to be copied at all you'll have to get a global patent (or "just" europe, US, Australia and Japan) and the expences herefor wil reach millions of euro's, onely the biggest compagnies can affort that.

The second way to protect your design is much cheaper;
You can protect your design by registrating the model of your boat, in holland we call this "model bescherming" (if someone knows the english word please tell me). when you protect your design tihs way you actualy protect the shape of your design. So if anyone changes this a bit it is a new design and may be produced anywhere by anybody.

The reason why people can protect their inventions by patenting them is that they can make money of their inventions. BUT patents won't last for life (just five or ten years), this is because other peaple can use your design to make their own (not a exact copy but a better version). Because of this progess in technology can be achieved...

The second way of protecting sound a bit crappy but it makes quick progress in boat design possible. The onely BUT in this way of protecting is, that you don't have the alone rights for five years of making a canoe, Someone who makes a better canoe as yours can start seling it, in the time it takes to ajust your design.

And afterall the poloboat industry isn't really a big bugs making one, a compagny can't live on building just polo boats. All polo boat builders also do other things with the manufacturing technologies they have. So i do think just copying boats stinks (a boat portected by model protection may not be copied) But making improvements on boat designs of others is a good thing to do to (more people know more (and are more creative) as one) and keeps improvment of canoepolo alive.


So don't buy a just copied boat but buy the best boat ther is for you, even when it is just slightly different from a boat of a concurent compangy, this keeps boat designers active and keeps the progress in boat desgn alive.

Cheers (Sloincke (or something like that) as he irish say), Paul.

[Mike]

(Sloincke (or something like that) as he irish say)

heh heh heh,
good try paul,

Slainte :D

[niall]

Or if it is good bye then

Slan leat

[Paul Costerus]

Originally posted by Mike
heh heh heh,
good try paul,

Slainte :D

Like thanks boy...

PAul

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by Shaq
sorry, am i missing something, is there a company making polo boats called Pretender??
The Pretender is an italian copy of the REVENGE boat, made with polietelene, made on licence (?!) from the UK company.
This also goes for the Nitro composite boats.
The italian boats are much cheaper than the original so they are in big demand with the teams there.

[PeQu]

That Pretender don't look like Revenge to me, but... :stupid: ;)

[Cor]

It becomes confusing. :confused: We are not talking about the sistema pretender, I hope??

[scroll]

I think we are talking about the predator from drakarkayaks??
http://www.drakarkayaks.com.ar/

GReets Pieter

[Cor]

But this is a copy of the vampire bat, made in Argentina... :bang:

[manuel]

in my humble opinion, people onli owns the moral right of shapes
until it shows to world, after that enyone that looks at it ,is alowedto copi if changes something from his own idea
legaly everyone as the right that law permits