design copies

[Martijn]

Just read Clyde's reply on the Speedart boats..

I agree with Clyde of course... copying designs is very bad.. ( no need to shout though ) :rolleyes:
But I'm just wondering... which companies make boats and paddles from other designers under license/agreement ?

Plastex is making the Senso from Felix... afaik they have an agreement...
I noticed Double Dutches Matador with Mega stickers on it... I assume Mega wouldn't make illegal copies..

But apparently speedart is making illegal copies..
At Charleroi there was also a boat called the Flighty, made in Portugal, claiming that it was under license of Dave Brown.. apparently Dave didn't know about it...

I also saw a boat very much like the Nitro.. I think it was from France... is it a copy? or is it different enough to be called a new design? I think it was this one: link to kayak (http://www.idoine-diffusion.fr/doc_detail.asp?num=361&liste=kayaks)

The Kinetic blade was designed by Neil Baxter, afaik... and was first produced by Double Dutch (correct me if I'm wrong). And is now made by more companies... but are those illegal copies? or do they have a license??

Could we have a list of all boats made under license? cause I find it pretty hard at this moment, to judge if something would be a illegal copy or not...

[michielv]

Martijn,

AFAIK the Matador is not a DD design but only a licensed model. Mega obtained a license from the designer as well so these boats are also legal.

Same goes for the Mega Mystere boats & Kinetic paddles: they are made under a license (The Mystere was designed by Mark Downey of RoughStuff).

An illegal copy I know of is the Italian(?) NitroX, examples of which I've seen at Ieper.

However, ripping off designs is not a new thing. 15 years ago the then brand-new Tiekano design was copied very rapidly by even other Dutch builders such as Gans. Not sure about licenses though but I wouldn't be surprised if the first copies weren't legal.

I guess that is how lots of copies start out: people copying an existing boat for themselves or club use and after a while decide that they cold actually sell these copies.

Just a thought: how legal is it to copy parts of a boat such as a cockpit rim in order to be able to repair ones own boat?

[George]

Hi MichielV

Interesting this one.

Mega never actually obtained the license for the Matador. They did talk about a deal which was never honoured, hence the license was never actually issued to the BCU polo comittee from the holder.

Would this make it a copy??

[michielv]

Hi MichielV

Interesting this one.

Mega never actually obtained the license for the Matador. They did talk about a deal which was never honoured, hence the license was never actually issued to the BCU polo comittee from the holder.

Would this make it a copy??

Hmm, I never knew Mega never received a license for the Matador. It does explain why at least their website focuses on the Evolution/Excel/Raptor/VelociT range of poloboats.

As the intention was to obtain a proper license I guess this was not a real illegal copy. There was probably some sort of agreement on starting to produce the Matador before all details were finished. The deal fell through (for whatever reason) and I guess Mega now stopped producing the Matador?

As far as I know Double Dutch also stopped producing poloboats (only for specific demands/orders) so in a way Mega producing boats without proper license will not really have pushed them out of business because DD focuses on slalom rather than polo. But this is just my guess I really don't know any details on this so don't take my word for it.

Cheers,

Michiel

[George]

Hi Michaelv
Sorry Michael I should have stated that I am the designer and holder of the license.
Fair point.
I can confirm that a deal was agreed but never honoured.
The boats have still been produced and sold.
I have no problem with this as long as there is an agreement to rectify the issue of the license.
As far as I am aware Anton is still producing boats for polo at DD. Not sure who has implied that DD would be out of business if Mega built the boats? Its a big market and there is plenty of room, just not a lot of choice.
Maybe time for an up to date matador.

[michielv]

Hi Michaelv
Sorry Michael I should have stated that I am the designer and holder of the license.
Fair point.
I can confirm that a deal was agreed but never honoured.
The boats have still been produced and sold.
I have no problem with this as long as there is an agreement to rectify the issue of the license.
As far as I am aware Anton is still producing boats for polo at DD. Not sure who has implied that DD would be out of business if Mega built the boats? Its a big market and there is plenty of room, just not a lot of choice.
Maybe time for an up to date matador.

Hi George,

Nice to meet a poloboat designer :) .

I am not really sure but from what it sounds like you should be receiving some sort of compensation from both Mega and DD?

My remark on DD being out of business was based on the following:
1/ I recently have heard from Anton that DD is not/hardly producing any poloboats anymore.
2/ I was under the impression that the Matador was designed by DD so any production by a another company may be a competitor to DD's business. I figured the lack of DD poloboats even in Holland may also be due to other companies such as producing the same boats. Being put out of business is perhaps slightly exaggerated, I only meant that DD was not very active on the poloboat market anymore.

To be fair, I have paddled the Matador a few times ages (around 1999) ago, both the DD and Mega versions. I personally like the Mega ones better but that was mainly because of the seat. The DD seat was a pain in my rear-end whereas the Mega polo seat was very comfy.

Although I don't know any details it would be the decent thing to do to either honour agreements or discuss new terms to settle this issue. Especially as Mega has experienced the same with their designs.

Perhaps Anton can shed some light on the DD side of this?

Cheers,

Michiel

PS An update of the Matador may be nice. For choice-sake and because I liked the looks of the boat. They reminded me of the Felix Volta 301 (designed back in 1990 or something).

[George]

Hi Michiel

Compensation would be nice! But alternativly 'what is fair and reasonable' or what is due, as I have counted a few boats out there and every time I see one its a little sad.

The DD agreement was honoured in full when the boat made it to production.
I have tried to start a conversation with Mega, but they were not interested. Sad really, it wasnt as if I was going to make my fortune! Its just nice to honour an agreement and continue a working relationship.

DD make some nice stiff boats, I myself got another matador about 2 years ago and it is just showing signs of light cracks, believe me its been used constantly and taken some hefty thumps. I am considering ordering another.
As for the update, it is already started. The problem is getting someone to build it (and who you can trust). I may go back to DD.

Since you liked it, I would be interested in your feedback and those around you who have tried it.
It would also be handy to know the type of paddler i.e river, flatwater or just polo, as this does make a difference to the way people paddle. Paddlers range of weights and heights too.

Look forward to hearing from you.

[michielv]

Hi George,

The top layup boats from DD are great. I did notice (all in 1999, so things may have changed) that the cheaper layups were a lot more prone to getting damaged. Especially if compared to the Felix glass/diolene boats lots of people still paddled in back then. But I have seen a few of the expensive layups that really were durable.

To be fair, I ended my active polo career in 2003 (with a few hiccups in 2004) so I am not completely up to date on current gear. My current boat is still an Australian-built kevlar/glass Kayaksplus Vampire 2001. Currently I have taken up marathon paddling because of a lack of a team (and I like some form of competition) but I am looking at possibilities to get polo started at my local club but to do that I need to get some youth into the club first (when I joined earlier this year I was the junior member at the age of 38 :D). It's a slow process as you may know. But then again, it's a hobby :rolleyes:

But I would not mind giving the updated Matador a try, once it is finished etc.(or before if there are any prototypes nearby-ish) Perhaps Anton can bring one along to a polo competition nearby and I can give it a testrun. There are a few paddlers who bought a Mega Matador at the time, at least one of them still paddling it (I'm not sure about the rest as I haven't been to any competitions lately) so he would be an excellent person to compare the two.

Personally I always liked the idea of more or less locally produced boats as it allows players good/easy contact with the builders, kinda like the Dynamic being produced in Europe, Australia and Canada.

Having had a pretty decent relationship with Mega in the past I still find it hard to believe Malcolm has pulled a stunt like that. However, I have heard from other people who had issues (with surfkayak designs) so I don't doubt your word. As you said, a sad story that should not have happened.

I'll send you a private email so we can chat about this off line

Cheers,

Michiel

[megaman]

From what i recall ,and this is a good few years ago.
George had a boat from us as part of a licence deal. Dont remember and further discussion. Only 2-3 boats were ever made, one of which was a demo, 1 was Georges, and i think one went to a customer. Never had any good feedback on the design, never pursued it any further, noone has enquired about one for years.

Malcolm