National Champs etc

[Alan Vessey]

So what does everyone think about the state of the National Champs? Leagues etc?

Over the last few years in my opion things have gone down hill badly. The Nationals aren't as competitive anymore, the leagues need addressing and we need to do something pretty soon.

But what?

My idea would be to have 1 weekend, where the top 4 of Division 1 play off for a Championship (mens, ladies and possibly youth). Also on this weekend the playoffs for 2,3 and 4. With the bottom 2 of div.1 play off against the top 2 of div.2 (to see who plays in div.1 the following year), the Div.3 playoffs and the div.4 playoffs.

This comp would have to be at a decent public venue, where the public can see the sport. We have got to stop playing 'behind close doors' if we are going to go anywhere.

Also maybe move the leagues outside? Did you know that between £15,000- £20,000 goes into pool hire? this is 'dead' money going out of the sport each year. If we played at venues where there were a couple of pitches then you could hold 1,2 or 3 league days over that day/weekend. Also the money saved on pool hire could go back into the sport by making current venues better or making new venues. (this would also help clubs develop if they had a permanent pitches at thier disposal).

Summer busy already with squads/internationals etc? we wouldn't need 6 tournaments per league, probably 4. Squads training could be slimmed down because coaches know you are playing good level polo through the summer not just 4 comps in 6 months (some players!).

What do you all think? if you play polo and want to carry on playing then you have to get involved, because believe me its going to go to the wall sooner rather than later.

[bob]

HI ALAN
I along with other's agree with what you said the idea's
you have need to be developed further.
having a lot of teams travelling up and down motorways every saturday to play at various venues as we at FOA and other clubs
seem to do seems such a waste of time energy and money.

TIME ENERGY AND MONEY we would prefer to put into some of your idea's last season alone we spent thirteen consecutive saturdays on the motorway to different venues without a break.
TIME were we would have been developing other people in to the sport.

I think most league organisers would prefer to put the energy
they already give voluntary into development of british canoe polo
into a more fresh approach

LAST thing money i think you under estimated a great deal here
when you think of time off work, petrol, hotel fee's, packed lunches, meals on motorway rip off cafes etc etc

ANYWAY alan you have my support and help in developing a more positive approach

regard's bob

[Danny Bowles]

Had a thought about the Nationals what do you reckon on this -

National League Div 1 and Div 2 Play the there first 3 tournaments from Dec- May time 5 tournaments with everyone attending 3. INDOORS - cos its cold .....

National Champs weekend 2 days
- Saturday - Div 1 and 2 league finishes and league positions decided seeding for next days knock out system
- Saturday - Rest of Open teams play off for league positions and top 2 get promoted into the knock out from DIV 1 &2

- Sunday - Knock out games if you lose then you drop down into a group which play off for one escape back in with a chance = lot of games for someone trying to get back up but should make for the best final.
- Sunday - Teams that missed the cut off now play the same knockout system as the DIV 1 / 2 with people moving up and down to decide final positions.


Honours
-League winner
-Knock out winner
-Award to best placed knock out non - Div 1 / 2 side.


Don't know if this would work cos I havn't worked out the numbers of games etc but it may be a way of raiseing the standard and profile of the nationals?

just a thought .........

Danny

[niall]

I have not had the honour to grace more than this years National Champs but having been to the Irish Nationals twice, I can compare. I think the open system was a crap waste of a saturday. I enjoyed playing against a div 1 team once (I was on a scratch team since I have only been playing a year) but getting trashed in all 4 saturday matches was boring. It can't have been fun for the div 1 teams either. I thought that the venue and the organisation was first class though.

[clyde]

Alan has made good points which urgantly need the attention of a wide British audience.

It may be getting obvious that every time I post up something I try to take the opportunity to point out that the currentl polo committee - our National Committee for Canoe Polo, are more or less going to completely retire at the next AGM.
This is not a joke.

Our sport has been run by people who have had no involvement for years. Even then it was their kids and they left the sport ages ago.

It's time people - new people took over to put these great ideas into practice. It's doesn't take too much work - particularly if there are lots of people contributing.

I have contacted Tony Pell - (National Champs Organiser) and his Wife Shirley (National Leagues Organiser) and told them I will happily collect all feed back I get and pass it on to them - or their successor.

Even Paddy's League idea for Div 3/4 is only any good if someone is there to make it happen and over see it.

TRUST ME - THIS IS AN ISSUE FOR EVERYONE.

IT'S TIME TO PUMP IN SOME NEW BLOOD OR WE WILL ALL SUFFER.

Clyde

[ANDY PUMPHREY]

Alan

Yes I agree, Martlet Cougars havent been for three years and the main reasons are because.

Its held over three days and not two.

Its on a bank holiday weekend and many people go away on holiday with family that week.

However I still applaud the organisers for the effort they put into this event.

Andy Pumphrey

PS Martlet need one or two players for Liverpool you dont know of any players in your teams who are looking to play

[Norf]

Very good that these questions are getting some serious consideration.

I attended the Nationals this year, and although i had a great weekend and the tournament was well organised, too many of our matches were extremely one sided (both winning and losing) which isn't fun for either team and needs changing for next year.

A few years ago, the structure was based around 'Groups' of similar level teams playing on the saturday with possibility of 'promotion' to reach the final. Seemed to work pretty well (from a players point of view) and i'm not sure why this has changed. Organisational hassle? Anyone know?

Further to Andy's point: The Bank holiday weekend date presents other problems as the Scottish teams traditionally don't attend due to not having the benefit of the monday off. This tends to make it an 'English and Welsh Championships' which isn't really what we're aiming for. Would therefore be good to have a format that fits in 2 days.

Danny's idea of combining the final tournaments of the National League with the National Champs could work very well, although it does tend to make that one weekend overly important. Teams could suffer a lot through illnesses/injuries/acts of God etc. despite having had a great season otherwise.

The biggest problem for the Nationals is ensuring that the top teams want to come and play as the current format is poor value (in polo terms) relative to an International tournament. Danny's system would 'require' them to be there as they'd have too much to lose by missing it! Ideally they'd want to come for the prestige of becoming National Champions, but the standard of competition needs to reflect that. A grouping system, with opportunities for lower ranked teams to 'win thru' could help that happen.

Alan's idea of combining the Playoffs with a 'Champtionship decider' for Div 1 all at one venue sounds very good, but seems to me to be a seperate issue. This wouldn't really replace the National Championships, although it would be a great tournament in its own right.

Moving the National Leagues to outdoor venues and running them through the summer could be a good idea for the money saved (or spent differently) and better exposure for the sport - but what would then happen through the winter months? More regional level tournaments (less travelling?)? For some teams (universities and schools) it'd be important to run leagues through the academic year.

there seem to be a number of issues coming up here which are all getting mixed in together:

1) National League dates/tournament structure
2) National league playoffs for promotion
3) How to promote/format the National Champs
4) How to restructure our sport to improve exposure to outsiders.

The key question really is 'How do we want our sport to be structured to ensure a successful future?'. Big question, that...

Apologies for the long post, but there seem to me to be a lot of aspects to this!!!

Cheers
Rob

[Unregistered]

One thing that has changed is the div.1 group would have possibly only 5 teams in it, when it first moved outside all of the Div.1 league teams attended.

On the combining of the Leagues/national champs, I would do away with 2 comps and just have one overall championship based on the league. (top 4 playoff).

Agreed over 2 days not 3, public venue.

With the leagues there is a meeting tomorrow and maybe the point of 'going outdoors' is dicussed.

With regard to the uni teams and term time maybe half and half. half inside half out, the leagues could start in February and finish with the playoffs June/July. I think the season should be more condensed though over say 4 months for training purposes.

[Unregistered]

622 views and about 6 replies!! So some might be from abroad but I bet the most are froim the UK. Get your finger out and start helping or thinking cause the clock is ticking 6 months before the majority of the committee goes.

[Norf]

I like the idea of combining the playoffs for the different divisions into 1 tournament. Would be a really good 'end of season showcase', and having one outdoor venue (ideally good for spectators) for a weeknd must be cheaper than the pool sessions currently used. But i don't think this would replace the Nationals.

Its the only tournament that caters for all standards of teams that (in theory) anyone could win. This engages the novice players in the evnt and may inspire them to go on to play at higher levels. Running it more like an international on the saturday (with classes initially, followed by 'working up the ladder' and knockouts) would be better.

More condensed league season sounds good - Jan to May? would reduce overlap/clashes with existing internationals.

Unregistered: what came out of yesterday's meeting?

[Alan Vessey]

Unregistered was me (sorry on another computer) not a lot really from what i've heard, to late to change anything for the 03/04 season but 2004/2005 season would see changes if any.

On the Nat. Champs, thats the point that is putting people off 22-0 score lines, dosen't do the Div.1 or Div.4 team any good and being realalistic only a div.1 team is going to win. Maybe a ladder system. but if you want to enter against the top teams surely go to hull or Liverpool and enter the first class, our supposed 'show case' shouldn't see these big scorelines.

[Norf]

Isn't the whole point of the nationals that a Div 1 side SHOULD win, but maybe, just maybe, they won't? Bit like the FA Cup...

Perhaps a Nationals-esque tournament could be used as a curtain-raiser to the new season. The teams winning the end of season play-offs could be invited back and seeded or grouped for a knockout competition.

This would tend to ensure that keen teams that are 'on the up' attend who are more likely to make for entertaining and competant polo.

For the lower ranked teams, they'll have seen the better sides in action at the playoffs the summer before and have had the internationals and the winter to have raised their game. And the potential for an embarassing upset might keep the Div 1 sides on their toes!

Potential problem with a venue...

Just a thought, not sure if its workable!!

[Norf]

Been musing over the options presented so far, maybe a hybrid of the Danny's and Alan's ideas would be interesting...

Combining all the playoffs: Proposal (as i read it) involves 34 teams (top 4 of each Nat D1, bottom 2 of Open D1, Top 2 Open D2, top 2 of each D3 (4), Top 2 of each D4 (10).

Nat D1 sides play off for position - either 1v4 and 2v3 then a final and 3rd/4th = 2 games each, or a mini-league =3 games each.

Coudl do mini-leagues for D1/2 and D3 playoffs = 3 games each.

D4 teams get a better deal, maybe 2 leagues of 5 = 4 games each plus top 2 in each league crossing over for semis to give the two promoted teams. = 5 games max.

Overall, not a lot of games for each team, but a fair few in general!

If it were possible to do all of this in 1 day (52 games i reckon with mini-leagues, 10 minute halves => 26 Game hours => 3 pitches with 8 and a bit hrs per pitch. Maybe?), the sunday could then be spent with a knockout tournament, either based on groups, or seedings directly from the previous day. Knocked out teams then play for position.

National leagues are then effectively a selector for entry into the National Champs.

Bit harsh on the rest of the teams that don't make the playoffs though... and what happens for the youth/ladies who also play in the Open teams that qualify??

Ho hum... Another idea for the mixer..!

[David]

I have spent loads of time thinking about different scenario’s for this…..as I sure many others have too (not that they show up here).
Wrote pages of stuff on possible ideas - all flawed in someway (hence why I am not tacking them on the bottom of this).

Getting ideas here is great opportunity to get a wide range of views but it will always need developing etc and decisions, probably very brave and difficult ones, will need to be made off the back of these ideas and subsequent discussions/meetings.

Do we know when the next meeting is that people (seemingly few people if this thread is anything to go by) who want to try and improve/save our sport can attend to voice their ideas, thoughts and concerns etc? I guess that will be an AGM or committee meeting? We just missed one right??

I like many others have not really given this much time or thought but reading the few posts here and seeing what is happening at domestic comps etc, appreciate fully we all need to start thinking about how to move our sport on and quickly…and I regret not having thought about it and contributed to it much before and think it unfair for one or two people to have to try and resolve all the issues (as is often the case).

If we all ignore this situation there will be a continued decline in the standard of these comps that will have significant repercussions (such as less people coming in to the sport, more leaving, clubs folding, less opportunity to play, more GB players playing abroad to get better competition, even less money into the sport etc etc etc)

All that waffle said, it still doesn’t help much!

Not that it’s my call……but…… I think we should try and publicise this issue and this thread as much as possible. All people who want to contribute to the discussions do so….by a set deadline. Then, once all the thoughts and ideas are in, we call some sort of meeting, whether it be a players meeting/ committee meeting or Extraordinary AGM to finally resolve it - then communicate the outcome to all.

Finally, total agreement with Paul...we need new people on the committee who are actively involved and participating in the sport otherwise people who are far removed from the sport will make key decisions that affect us.

Paul, what positions are going to be vacant at next AGM? And when is it? OK, I know I should know these things but humour me here!

What is the process for people getting elected? Or placed on to them? Can we solicit applications from people?

Much as people don’t want to go on to the committee for all sorts of reasons, as Paul says, people who are actively participating in the sport need to get on board (much against my better judgement I will chuck my name in to the hat for some sort of position…..lamb to the slaughter comes to mind! Anyone else gonna chance their arm???)
Better still, if we can solicit applications, we could probably get/select a very dynamic, positive committee who really have the sports interests at heart and posses the right skills and experience.

Well, that’s my two pennies worth (more like 50p; bit long winded sorry!)


Dave Sanders

[clyde]

As usual, this thread is getting way off the initial subject, but I will answer Dave's questions here.

The BCU Canoe Polo Committee is on the 7th December 2003.

Usually there are only a hand full of people there. Usually there are not actually enough people there to make the meeting even quorum !

All the key roles on the committee are for 2 year periods and they are supposed to over lap each other. Positions like the Chair, Treasurer are supposed to come up for renewal alternate years to Vice Chair and Secretary for example. This is supposed to ensure some continuity in the committee from one year to another and get around the possibility of systematically replacing the whole committee in one go. Trouble is, those there like Shirley, Maria etc have felt pressurised into staying much longer than they wanted. Now they have reached rock bottom and it's all they can do to drive themselves to finish out to the AGM.
The position of Treasurer and Secretary don’t really require any in depth knowledge about the sport, but the other position do.

The thing that makes it tougher for them is that there are plenty of people complaining about things and changing things off their own back - things like cancelling pool bookings. The committee have lost hundreds - thousands of pounds on this sort of thing over the last few years as it's getting worse and the knock on effect for the committee is a problem they would otherwise not have had to even waste time talking about if everyone excepted the National Committee are expert at doing what they do because they have years of experience.

Anyway, what you need to do is take look in the year book and look at the key roles and figure who could do what. It's not a good idea to just enlist people to join the committee without first considering what they can do on it. Sure the committee will function much better with 2-4 members without "qualified roles" but the committee could do with the following to walk away from the next AGM:- Chair, Vice Chair, Secretary, Treasurer, National Leagues Organiser. Other positions like National Champs Organiser, Chief Ref, National Coaching Organiser, PR Officer, GB Squads Manager, Web Page Editor, News Letter Editor, Equipment Officer, are a little more luxury orientated. As well as these positions, 2-4 additional people would simply make life so much easier for everyone there as everyone would have less to do and could then concentrate on what they do best.

If all these positions come up for election and are filled then our sport will be in a very strong position so give support to all those who need it as opposed to struggling just to keep head above water from one month to the next.

Even Club committees have the same problem as this, and often the same people on a club do the same thing on the National committee, not because they want to, but often because they feel no one else wants to or will do it.

This sport can really gain a tremendous amount of strength from this situation or sink to untold depths if a tiny percentage of people involved in our sport don't take a position in the committee. But one thing has to be clear. Those who say they will join should be only interested in the gains they can bring to the sport as a whole, not themselves or their club. This will filter down to them, but it's the whole sport who gains the most first.

Dave is offering to join the committee. I am too in the capacity of a member of the Chief Referee’s Panel. There is talk about other people, but most of this is hearsay unless those people actually put their own names down as being willing and able to give something back to this sport instead of constantly taking.

If for example you members of the many GB squads think you are doing your bit by representing your Nation as players, think again. There are very few people who give more than they take from this sport.

It’s time we gave our few existing committee members a big thank you and allow them to stand down with a clear consciences safe in the knowledge that things will improve.

I would love to attend this year and see several people standing for the same positions. That would make it an elected role, rather than what has happened for the last 10 or more years of whoever says “ok” gets the position.

Come on now, step up and sign up !

Clyde

[Dave Sanders]

I strayed off the thread because I made comment on your first post here!!
so back to Alan's first one...

As I said, I tried to think of different National Champs scenario's etc such as Al’s and Danny’s, but mine were all flawed in some way..…plus I don’t reckon one person will be able to propose one solution that would be acceptable to all…..hence why I thought ideally people need to get together somehow (AGM?) and try to make a proposal that suits the majority (i.e. the sport) and then put it to the committee for their support and action (if there is a committee in 6 months.....which is where the thread loses track!).

This is a good opportunity to voice ideas etc....but....everyone who has an interest in the Championships needs to know this is going on, otherwise when possible changes are made, they will be the first ones to complain (that said, if they know its going on but can’t be bothered to give their input/feedback, then they haven’t a leg to stand on nor a legitimate reason to complain and moan if they don't like it).


Dave

[Unregistered]

the old national champ system was better where teams from lower leagues had to qualify it made going to the national champs something to be proud of.

hull and liverpool are good venues for this tournament because as alan said they not behind closed doors and show poeple what the sport is about.

this would also eliminate ridiculous score lines and also give teams from div2 pos. top of div 3 something to aspire to.

regards