Hand tackle onto kayak

[SeanT]

We've just been having a discussion re hand tackling onto kayaks. The first bit is an email copied without consent from Andy (Hope he doesn't mind!) The second bits what I think but I know there are some different views about. Lets all try to get more brownie points from Dean ;-) !!

Been thinking about illegal hand tackles. Surprise surprise!! and I direct you to some comments.

Under 13 NZ Rules.

A dangerous foul is a foul involving paddle contact with the opponent or with the ball in the opponent's hand, or contact with the body of an opponent by the impact zone of a kayak.

I think a lot of people would consider any part of the kayak contacting the opponents body to be dangerous. In the interest of a flowing game playing advantage covers the minor offences due to lack of boat control or as we discussed "diving".

Your hand tackle rule is clear about the side of the pool and I don't have a problem with that. I consider a safe hand tackle to be any that ensures the opponents head and body hit water, however small that bit of water is.

Under 21 we see the following.

The tackler must not cause contact between an impact zone of their kayak and the opponent's body, cause the kayak to travel over the opponent’s body, nor have the potential to break the opponent's kayak on impact. The opponent's arm is not considered part of the body.

What about a tackler causing contact between the opponent and someone else's boat, not consistent I'd say. This isn't clear but I think you intend the "impact zone" to be the bow of the kayak? Whatever, generally any contact between body and boat is considered dangerous and potentially a foul depending on advantage.

The ICF rule effectively says any hand tackle which endangers a player should be illegal. As you guys explained earlier today you don't consider a boat landing to be dangerous so that's a fair interpretation. I'd consider it to be at least be unsportsmans-like to give an opponent whiplash if their body hit the water and their head didn't!!

Anyway, that's just my thoughts after todays game. Thought you might be interested to read my reasoning. I think in the Uk we are fairly explicit about not pushing a player onto a boat or the side, (not including arms!). But the online rules are not available at the moment so I can't confirm for now.

Cheers
Andy

Seans reply

I can accept that it may not be unreasonable to consider a hand tackle onto a boat to be dangerous.
The rule referring to kayak tackle not allowing body / boat contact I believe is in view of the fact that the momentum of tackling kayak may be quite substantial and contact of the impact zone of the kayak with the body of the tackled player will result in transfer of a fair amount of that momentum (as in front bumper in the guts or side) Ouch!
This doesn't really happen to the same extent in a hand tackle. The tackled player is vertical and has no rotational velocity and the deck they land on next to them is stationary (may be moving forward back etc but its not rising up off the water toward them ) The player is then pushed sideways losing balance. When they fall they don't fall as they do if you were on land and tipped up onto a rail then fell over onto solid ground. The kayak they fall onto is floating and will reduce the impact at least to some extent by flexing and sinking further (the force with which you would hit would also be less I believe, as you are rotating around some midline point which will lessen the acceleration from gravity but that's a bit technical). In addition the tackled player already has all the momentum and the transfer when they hit the kayak will be from the tackled player to the kayak, this is very likely to be over a significantly larger area (than in a kayak tackle) if they fall full onto the kayak, therefore its gonna hurt much less. If they don't fall full onto the kayak then chances are they're only going to strike a glancing blow and carry on over
As the tackled player there are generally things you can do to stop from landing full on the deck of another boat such as tucking in forwards or leaning backwards. (I believe you do have time for this in most situations and many of us would be doing this already to try to reduce the chance of a successful tackle). Sure you may strike a glancing blow but you're wearing a padded lifejacket / helmet / mask.
The worst situations I can envisage are;
1) a player hand tackled onto a boat not tucking in etc but with their arm/paddle out as in a high brace and doing some damage in that way to their shoulder / arm. Not going to do much in the way of head neck body damage.
2) a player hand tackled, sitting upright and staying sitting upright, and their head contacting the deck of another kayak around the cockpit area. In this situation the tackled players head will have been accelerated as much as possible from the tackle, and will decelerate the fastest. The only bit you could damage is your neck (heads in a hat) and realistically I don't believe you're going to do much more than strain some muscles / ligaments at worst. Your more likely to get a significant neck injury if a hard pass/shot sconed you I would have thought

If these these or similar situations were felt to be unreasonably dangerous I would think you would need to phrase the rule that "if the tackled player MAY contact another boat then its illegal". Giving them a small bit of water to fall into won't eliminate the risk of the injury as they may not tuck in /lean etc (and if they do well the chance of them getting hurt in the first place is pretty small!)

To me polo is a contact sport and I haven't seen or heard of anyone significantly hurt in these situations. Not without risk but neither is the game.

What are everyone else's veiws?

[SeanT]

My first sentence should have said "I can accept that it may not be unreasonable to consider a hand tackle onto a boat to be dangerous, but I don't"

[troy]

With reference to Andy's original comments:

'impact zones' are referred to in the Conditions of Play '8. Kayaks'.

The bit Andy refers to in Rule 21 is under the heading of 'Kayak Tackle' and has no reference to Hand Tackles.

[Andy E]

Originally posted by troy
With reference to Andy's original comments:

'impact zones' are referred to in the Conditions of Play '8. Kayaks'.

The bit Andy refers to in Rule 21 is under the heading of 'Kayak Tackle' and has no reference to Hand Tackles.

Apologies Troy. I was looking at the rule changes not at the whole rules document. Although I did assume that the impact zone was the area protected by the bumpers.

I had to reference to rule 21 as there is (as you point out)no mention of contacting kayaks in the hand tackle rule. Which is kind of what the discussion is about, no?!

Part of the issue is that it isn't definite in the ICF rules either except to say whether a hand tackle endangers a player.

When a lot of the NZ rules have attempted to clarify uncertainties in the ICF rules this issue appears to have been missed.

Hand Tackle:
A player may hand-tackle an opponent who is in possession of the ball by pushing the opponent's side or upper arm with an open hand.
The contact may only be with the opponent's side or upper arm including the shoulder or shoulder blade, and the tackle must not endanger the opponent by pushing the opponent so that their head or body is likely to contact the side of the pool. Infringement is a foul and may incur a sanction, Signal 11 applies

Now the issue still remains as to how a referee is going to interpret endangering a player.

Is pushing a player onto a kayak dangerous. In some situations I would say yes and in all other situations I would play advantage to the tackled player.

Cheers
Andy

[SeanT]

I think you need to read the rule more clearly Andy. The rule you've just quoted says "... the tackle must not endanger the opponent BY pushing the opponent so that their head or body is likely to contact the side of the pool......." It does not say "....the tackle must not endanger the opponent subject to the referees interpretation". In this rule as its written, kayak contact by the tackled player is clearly not illegal, as the rule defines what may not happen in a hand tackle and kayak contact is not mentioned. This is not an omission as this was the intent when the rule was written. The rule is clear if you read it carefully.

The broader debate though is whether or not it should read that "....the tackle must not endanger the opponent subject to the referees interpretation" or some such. I have not heard / read anything to convince me of this, but maybe if thats ICF we should be considering whether we really need to be different You say;

"Is pushing a player onto a kayak dangerous. In some situations I would say yes...".

Could I ask you to outline those situations and the likely danger / injury you believe posed so as I can try to understand your position.

Just to be pedantic where you say "...and in all other situations I would play advantage to the tackled player." of course what you mean, I assume, is that if the rule was changed and the ref didn't consider the tackle dangerous then play would continue. If it wasn't dangerous the player wasn't endangered therefore there has been no infringement and there is no advantage to play.

[AndyE]

Okeydoke, I 've found some time now........

Lets recap.

The current NZ rule states specifically the pushing onto the side of the pool is a foul. As this endangers the player. No other push that endangers the player is considered illegal. By the NZ rules wording.

Or at least the rule doesn't state that an illegal hand tackle is any that endangers a player. Which is the case for the ICF ruling.

Would a tackle with force be deemed dangerous? I'm sure that a smaller lighter player could be made to hit a boat with considerable force!

The problem here is that it has been decided that a player being hand tackled onto a boat is not considered dangerous. However you admit that there are occasions where a player could be injured through being pushed onto a boat. Polo is a contact sport but I would prefer to hurt myself through my mistakes not through being tackled legally.

Now following a push onto a boat it is highly likely that the tackled player will use the boat they were pushed onto to right themselves. If that is a member of the opposition then it would be possible to draw a foul as interefernce with the oppositions equipment is deemed holding, no? This is getting silly I know but can you see my point?

I'm not saying that every push onto a boat should be called a foul, in the interests of game continuity there are fouls and there are fouls, and that is where playing advantage comes in. There is no other legal tackle in the game of polo where it is possible to injure your opponent. Why should hand tackling be any different?

Finally, elsewhere I noted a stricter rule for awarding GPS than the ICF being implemented (or should that be a clearer rule!!). I read the justification for this that if NZ players are playing cleaner in front of the goal then at internationals silly fouls won't be given away. Seems a shame to be lax about hand tackling and not apply the same ruling, as I think you'll find that you will be giving away fouls when you push the opposition onto boats, the sidelines and the poolsides.

Pushing a player onto a boat is almost as dirty as pushing them in and then stern-dipping under their boat to clout the player with your tail whilst they are upside down, not guilty your honour, but then it's hard to ref that!!

Cheers
Andy

[vish]

QUOTE: Pushing a player onto a boat is almost as dirty as pushing them in and then stern-dipping under their boat to clout the player with your tail whilst they are upside down...

That's a neat trick, I never thought of that!!!!! :D