Rule 21 - Jostling

[troy]

Editorial Change – the word 'by' was missing in para 2
change to "… or guarded BY one of their teammates.."

[becks.c]

I think the jostling issue merits more than spelling/grammatical changes.

This rule is currently refereed quite inconsistently in our neck of the woods, I'd be very interested to hear from any 2002 NZ squad members on possible improvements/changes to the wording of the NZ rules, or their interpretation.

[DeanM]

One part of the jostling rule that I've wondered about occasionally is where it says that jostling can happen "when the opponent is positioned at the attacking end" with their body in the 6m area. This could be interpreted to mean that if a team with the ball is being pressed under their own goal, they are (arguably) not at the attacking end and therefore jostling is disallowed. What if a press is on and players are being marked (and jostled) at both ends of the court at once? Can only one end at a time be the attacking end?

I think I'd like the rule to just leave out the words "at the attacking end", but since as far as I know I'm the only one who's ever wondered about this it might just be that I'm missing something obvious and there's a perfectly good reason for having things the way they are.

Cheers,

- Dean

[Nick B]

With the rule as it currently is I would like some clarification as to quite the intent when it was written.

"A player may jostle an opponent by using the kayak in an attempt to turn the opponents kayak......"

"Jostling does not include directly pushing an opponent out of position........"

What defines out of postion?
Does this mean you can only attempt to turn the ends of an opponent kayak and if you move their body they have been pushed out of position. ICF here I think allows for 1m of movement with sustained contact.
Last year the concensus was to allow pushing an opponent out of position by 0.5m. If we are going to do this again why not use the ICF rule. :confused:

[becks.c]

ICF Canoe Polo Rules
Illegal Jostle
Signals 10 and 15 apply.

A jostle is a player manoeuvring their kayak against an opponent’s kayak between the six (6)-metre lines and the goal line, to gain a position where neither player is attempting for the ball.

The following jostling is illegal.
When a player is stationary or attempting to maintain a position and their body is moved by more than half a metre sustained contact from an opponent’s kayak.
When the contact to the opponent’s kayak would be defined as a kayak-tackle. A player with the whole kayak behind the goal line may not be jostled, as they are not in the six (6) - metre area.


National League Tournaments 2002 - If you think back to the referee briefing and the handouts provided, the general consensus at the NL Tournaments last year was to allow a 1m as per current NZ rules.
As above, ICF rules state a 0.5m allowance although I am told this was not often refereed at the last Worlds comp or international invitationals prior to Worlds.

I definately think we need to look to what the rest of the world are playing, but in this case I don't think the ICF rules reflect the current reality of the international scene.
:bow:

[troy]

Note that (as outlined in Bec's posting above), ICF rules state jostling is illegal when the contact would defined as a kayak-tackle...

A kayak-tackle is using the kayak to push an opponent's kayak...

- therefore by ICF rules ALL jostling would be illegal!!

I think our general principle is quite reasonable and refereeable
- if it's an attempt to turn the opponent, it would count as jostling
- if it's not an attempt to turn the opponent (ie pushing directly alongside the ****-pit area) it would not be jostling, but rather a kayak-tackle - if that's happening off-the-ball, it would be illegal cause you aren't allowed to tackle 'off-the-ball'.

Also referees shouldn't confuse the 'attempt' with the outcome - ie if a player attempts to jostle correctly, but the opponent attempts to resist, the opponent may appear to be moved from their position, but that doen't mean it is illegal jostling - as long as the player was ATTEMPTING to TURN the opponent.

I think the wording can still be refined a bit, but I think the principle is consistent.

[SeanT]

I think the jostling rule is fine and referee-able. I agree with Dean that the words about the attacking end could to be omitted. There is no need for them and just makes it more confusing to read

[vashti]

When people jostle, they are trying to gain a positional advantage over their opponent. Turning someone doesn't necessarily get you that advantage, so you start with an initial turning stroke and then you might power underneath them and move yourself into a better position. The rules should reflect what actually happens in the game- to box in, you aren't necessarily turning someone, you're moving them horizontally so that they are squeezed in on the goalie. In many cases that's a draw stroke and not just a turning stroke.

I think the problems within the zone are people paddling through the zone and charging over the defence. I also think that impeding someone's progess in their own 6m when their team is in possesssion and heading towards your own goal is not jostling but obstruction. After all, you're not defending your zone because you're not in your zone.

I think we can write it in a clearer and more practical fashion. The current rule requires explanation every time you attend a tournament. I've seen some international players highly frustrated with the different interpretations, and they complain that the current rules aren't exciting or practical for the game.

[James]

It really doesn't matter what you write in the rules......unless you write them to reflect the way it's played.

While in Europe we were exposed to a variety of different interpretations of the Jostling rule........none of them reflect what is written in the ICF rules! Even at Worlds......enforcement was only if right in front of the goal and the defender was moved beyond a 1m......and really only the last couple of games saw the calls being made!!!!!!

Stop sanitizing the game! Who cares if we move a player up to 1m (should be measured from the center of a boat)......spectacle is improved by having teams fighting for position!

I notice that charging is also talked about in this thread: We should allow players to charge in and over boats! (delete the last line in the Charging rules). In Europe we got done not being familiar with this style, even adjusting for this took a long time. Also why should it be deemed illegal? How would it detract from the game if player are able to do this?

[Nick B]

I agree with James here.
Lets make the rule the way the game is played and not make rules that are restrictive and not adding to the games appeal.