Ball on spraydeck - when is it a foul?

[Raymond Liow]

Hi all!

Had some online discussion with Tom Colton, you guys know him, and Ken Chew, both of us being polo refs in our country.

Guess we're all clear that a player cannot intentionally place the ball on his deck, then paddle. Sometimes, a ball lands on our deck unintentionally as a result of a freak pass or a lousy catch.

We were discussing the legality of the above.

Tom's opinion is a player cannot paddle with the ball on the deck.

My take is the player cannot deliberately leave the ball on his deck, even though he's not paddling. If a ball lands on his deck unintentionally, then the player has to make an effort to remove the ball from his deck. If not, he'll be penalised.

Comments are welcome. Thank you.

[Ricky]

I think your answer is the best one Raymond.

Regards

[TheMasterG]

Well I think that anyone's natural reaction would be to pick the ball up and either throw it in front of them and paddle on or pass it. I think it's pretty obvious when someone travels with the ball, 2-3 strokes with it there and it's deliberate no matter how the ball ended up there.

[clyde]

The first stroke they make with their paddle is when it's a foul.

The referee isn't there to guess if the player made a mistake or paddled on purpose. Keep it simple !

If they use their hands - no problem.

[Malcolm]

Really? You can put the ball on your deck and paddle all the way down the pitch with your hands? (Presuming no-one on the other side is clever enough to come and push you in or nick the ball)

[Mark]

Malcolm
Don't just think about this particular rule think about any situation in the context of all the rules you can place the ball on your deck and paddle with your hands. no one however can do this and cover the full length of a pitch in less than 5 seconds as you will have been in possession the whole time.

[Raymond Liow]

So let me get this right.

Ball on deck, paddle = illegal possession
Ball on deck, row with hands = nothing wrong

I'm raising this 'cause Rule 31.5 states that "a player may not rest the ball on their spray decks", nothing about using the paddle or hand(s) to move.

[paul]

What about paddling with the ball under your arm - the aussies do this to good effect - would you blow a fould for it?

[roo]

For anyone who has played basketball...

sounds like travelling to me.......

"Peep"

If it looks intentional I'll blow it.

In the same way that pushing off the side is illegal (I think). I'll only blow that if it is being used to gain an advantage by the player directly affecting gameplay.

hf
roo

[Malcolm]

That's interesting, because we're quite often penalised at tournaments for pushing off the side after taking a corner (we're not very bright, and tend not to learn from our mistakes). It is illegal under rule 36.2 - it's an illegal hold and earns a free shot to the opposition.

36.2
A player using for propulsion or support, or moving out of place, any playing area equipment, e.g. boundary markers, goal supports, or any surrounding object.


I've always thought it was a bit harsh, especially if you're not influencing play in any way.

[roo]

Now, after taking a corner it is likely that you are still able to influence play.

If you were just making room so that you could then take paddle strokes I probably would turn a blind eye. If it was a full obvious push getting you into a good position I would have to penalise.

The soultion is to not line up to take a corner directly along the side of the pool.

Sounds a bit hypocritical compared to what I said in my last comments. I'm interested mostly in keeping the flow of play as continuous as possible.

hf
roo

[roo]

I was at a tournament where one of the team's goalies tended to rest his paddles on the lower edge of the goal with the blade inside the goal.

The goal was obviously moving whenever the player made a save although he wasn't actively attempting to move the goal out of the way. At least I don't think he was!

Your views on this would be appreciated.

hf
roo

[Mareese]

As far as I know you are not allowed to make a save with your paddle behind the bar of the goal.

[Raymond Liow]

Hi Paul and Roo,

No I don't think sticking the ball under your arms and paddling should be considered a foul if the 5 seconds rule isn't flouted.

The rules simply state that a player cannot place the ball on his spray deck. Nothing about disallowing the ball under the arms.

It's prefectly legal, Roo. No need to blow your whistle the next time you see one. :)

And referring to my previous post. I disagree that a player can place the ball on the deck and paddle with his hands. The rule states a player cannot place the ball on the spray deck. Period.

[jason]

Roo,

Unfortunately, it isn't basketball we're talking about. So if you're calling a penalty because you see someone doing something that reminds you of travelling in basketball, you're just inventing your own rules. I haven't seen anyone bouncing a ball to dribble it - shouldn't you be calling that up as well?

There is no rule in section 31, or anywhere else I can find, which disallows paddling with a ball under your arm. If, however, the ball drops touches the deck while the player is paddling with it tucked under their arm, then that is obviously a violation of rule 31.5 "A player may not rest the ball on their spray deck".

Jason.

[Jeff Cottrell]

Sydney Australia's referees were advised to interpret this rule literally "a player may not rest the ball on their spray decks" so the ball must not rest on the spray deck.

This rule is polo's version of the basket ball travel rule but is not the same. You can propell the boat in any way you want with the ball in your possession (in you hand, balancing on your paddle, within reach on the water which are all defined as having possession ) or on the nose or tail of your boa. If the rule wanted to stop you propelling the boat whilst in possession thats what it would say.

There is another rule that states you must relinquish possession every 5 seconds. We still have a few rules where referees because of their own agenda's have their own interpretations please do not make this one of them.

[clyde]

Your quite right Raymond, my mistake to say you can use your hands. This of course as you corrected me is no different to using the paddle where the act of the ball resting is seen as the same.

Old rule confusion - from British.

Trying once again to clear my head !

Just as a tackticle issue...
Any one who is particularly upset about this issue of being bale to tuck the ball under the arm and paddling off, shouldn't worry to much as they can't actually get to far or fast, particularly if they are challenged with either a hand or kayak tackle.

Clyde

[Raymond Liow]

*Phew* Thanx for clearing the air, Clyde.

But I disagree with you on the armpit tuck which you reckon is not very effective.

At this point in time when armpit tucks are not particularly 'rampant', the tuck becomes more of an element of surprise rather than a tactical move. When a player in my team used the tuck, presumably for the first time, in S'pore, the opponents were caught unaware and didn't know how to react, much less give him a good ol' hand tackle. Needless to say, the goal was scored.

When I played in Australia, I saw a top Aussie player use the tuck and paddled with his one hand. He managed to move a few critical metres more (which was VERY amazing, considering the speed and the distance he moved!!) and score a goal. Real eye-popper!

The armpit tuck is a very strategical move that routes that rules. It allows a player to move that crucial few metres more to a better position for an almost point blank shot without flouting the rules. An armpit tuck gives you the freedom to move with your paddle giving you solid possession of the ball at the same time in a very tight situation.

Ah... Do I see the armpit tuck manouevres in whoever's-reading-this-posts' minds now? :)

[becks.c]

I think a player should only be able to progress with the ball in hand.

In section 20 of the NZ rules:

"A player may progress by paddling with the ball in hand, but not on the deck or spraydeck nor carried in any other way such as under the arm.

A player collecting the ball onto the deck or spraydeck may complete the current paddle stroke, but must not allow the ball to rest there when they take their next stroke."

As previously mentioned, I have to agree that it is not up to the referee to decided whether an infringement was deliberate or not: that should be saved for deciding on the severity of a carding offence.

[michielv]

I don't think the rules actually forbid to paddle with the ball in hand. It is just limited (5 second time limit, don't carry the ball on the deck, you can be tackled etc.).

During the 2001 Dutch nationals one player from DKV used a form of the arm tuck to pick up the ball and move it over to the other side of his boat. Unfortunately he rolled the ball over his deck and the ref interpreted that as illegal.

At the time I personally figured that it is not allowed to paddle with the ball on the deck but the ref explained that it was illegal to actually place the ball on your deck.

Michiel

[Ken Chew]

Noticed that this thread has generated a lot of comments.

Just like to find out how many of those commenting are qualified referee and at what level?

I presume what you are commenting is what you would do when refereeing.